Talk:List of astrologers

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Discussion needed HERE -- Isaac Newton's occult studies

Contents 1 Deleted Andrew Homer 2 Was Isaac Newton Also an Astrologer? 3 Liz Greene or Elizabeth Greene? 4 We Need More Indian Astrologers Here 4.1 Sub-division 5 Astrologer article

[edit] Deleted Andrew Homer

For the following reasons:

• No notability - even on own (also personally created) page, there are no citations for notability.
• Added himself - if not against policy, at least it is suspect and biographical (which would require even more supporting reasons).

Someone please confirm this, as I am sure it will be pointed out I am not neutral enough (as I do not believe in astrology). Lundse 09:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I can verify this. He is not notable, he obviously added himself, and he's been doing similar things on other articles for a while. This is obviously a sockpupet for User:StarHeart

Stating that I'm "not notable," have you asked either Jim Lewis or Louis Freeh about that? Children, Ever heard of an autobiography? So, legitimate autobiographical material is AGAINST Wikipedia policy?? Damage a potential that Wikipedia could have!! Isn't there a first for everything? Are firsts invalid because there isn't a precedent? Please show me the document handed you that promised that everything worth knowing is on the Internet. StarHeart 22:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If noone else than you (or close a aquientance) thought to write an article on you, then no - you are not notable. If you can source your claim that you saved the world during the cold war, I will send you flowers and vigorously fight for the existence of your Andrew_Homer page and for your inclusion in this list.

And yes, "legitimate autobiographical material is AGAINST Wikipedia policy" when it is written by the person in question.

And regarding it being the first, it is not a question of whether we should not do anything new, it is a a matter of there already existing a policy on this topic, and if you want to change that policy, please go through the normal channels (and try not to call everyone you meet on the way a child or underinformed, it tends to undermine your efforts to build consensus).

"Citing a claim" does not mean a hyperlink to something on the net (although it can be), nor is anyone claiming all relevant knowledge is on the net or indeed in any book (of course it isn't). What the policy is meant to enforce is that a reader of the article is able to verify the information, ie. check the source and see that it is not just the opinion of one guy. Without sources, everyones viewpoint becomes equally valid (at least to the casual reader), making wikipedia an excercise in futility. Lundse 12:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Was Isaac Newton Also an Astrologer?

See this link on Newton and Astrology at the University of Utrecht NL. It answers all such claims quite convincingly [1]. Quote

During this interview, Newton confided to Conduitt that his interest in science had first been roused in the summer of 1663, when, as a young student at Cambridge, he purchased a book on astrology at the midsummer fair at Stourbridge. Baffled by the incomprehensible astrological diagrams and calculations in this work he then studied some books on geometry and calculus (such as by Euclid, Frans van Schooten and René Descartes) and was “soon convinced of the vanity & emptiness of the pretended science of Judicial astrology”.[by his nephew John Conduitt ] Lumos3 14:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I quite doubt that this "example" would prove beyond all doubt that Newton was not an astrologer. Moreover, this contention continues to come from some who themselves have not studied astrology whatsoever, but seem to have strong "beliefs" about astrology - despite their ignorance of the astrological sciences, and the history of astronomy in general. Many of Newton's astronomical and mathematical works not only originated from his study of astrology while at Cambridge, but of alchemy: as well as his personal correspondence with astrologers in England, and the United States. Also suggest Lumos, that before you contend that Newton was not an astrologer, that you read several books published at Cambridge on Newton's studies of astrology. Newton's passions lay in astrology, alchemy and theology. Moreover, the interview with his nephew, Conduitt, is not quoted in full, but is surely used by detractors to continue their weak assaults on astrology by maintaining that Newton was not an astrologer, when he surely was. Moreover, Newton's work was preceded by other "astrologers" as Brahe, Copernicus, Kepler, etc., and continued the mathematical mapping of the stars, and creation of better ephemerides.Theo 22:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

When I first studied Astrology, it was to debunk the topic. The more earnest my studies, the more I found that Astrology actually WORKED. So, why couldn't Newton have had a negative opinion initially, then changed his mind after further study? (I'm not saying that I agree with every statement made by every Astrologer. I back Declinations, Cosmobiology, Michael Munkasey, Robert Hand, Martin Schulman, Noel Tyl, Karen Hamaker-Zondag, Martin Goldsmith, Maritha Pottenger, Jim Lewis, plus Michel & Francoise Gauquelin.) StarHeart 22:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is true. I've worked with many scientists and skeptics of astrology, who, as they studied, became avid students, and some, astrologers themselves. One of the major problems with detractors of astrology is that they often have no knowledge of the science, and replace their skepticism with a cynical view. This blocks any learning and continues the negative, and false "view" of astrology - from the outside. Some "astrologers" as well, are just at fault; especially those who practice sun-sign astrology, with the spreading of very watered-down and unscientific "practice" of astrology. However, anyone who studies in earnest, serious astrology, knows that indeed, it is a science to practice, and a rather difficult one at that.Theo 05:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liz Greene or Elizabeth Greene?

ON A DIFFERENT NOTE: It's fine to remove "Liz Greene" because "Elizabeth Greene" is already on the list (and I apologize for not noting the duplication) but to my knowledge she has never used the name "Elizabeth," so possibly we should respect that? What do you think? -N.Harris (NaySay)

Liz Greene publishes under the name LIZ Greene. She does NOT go by the name Elizabeth Greene. Stick to the topics you know. StarHeart 22:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed - never heard Liz call herself (or anyone call her) anything but "Liz". On another matter, does anyone know if Ted Hughes the poet should be on the list of astrologers? It's news to me if he was an astrologer, but I'll be happy to stand corrected if so. Otherwise his name should go.

Thirdly, I tried to add Raphael's name, but it automatically linked to the artist's page, and I'm too new at Wiki to know how to set up a disambiguation page yet. MayoPaul5 23:00 UTC 13 April 2006. It's ok, I've done it MayoPaul5 13:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing in the Ted Hughes article about him being an astrologer. I'll remove it. Stubble 08:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] We Need More Indian Astrologers Here

We need more (ancient or modern) INDIAN ASTROLOGERS on this page/list -- does anyone here know of any? --205.188.116.7 03:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but I can't write the articles right now. The most illustrious were Parasara (Pronounced Pa-RAH-shuh-ruh), who wrote Hora Sastra; Varahamihira, a sixth-century astrologer and counsellor who wrote Brihat Jataka, and, a millennium later, the author of Phaladeepika, a text that may be referred to more than any others, whose name was Mantreswara. Jyotish astrologers sometimes refer to themselves as the descendants of Parasara, as he was the first major Indian astrologer, and his origins are very shrouded in mythology. But he wasn't the first. The first text in Sanskrit that we have which details many tenents of what we now call Jyotish was written hundreds of years before the Common Era and is called Yavana Jataka. The author is purported to be a rishi (something like a prophet, but usually translated as "sage") called Sphujidhvaja. There are many other classic Jyotish authors (notably Jaimini whose books detail a variant system of Jyotish) of course, but those are the highlights. As for today's astrologers, I suppose the most well-respected was a fellow who died several years ago, named B.V. Raman, but honestly, I'm not sure if there aren't some who are even more noted, for example a man named K.N. Rao. K.S. Krishnamurthi (no, not THAT Krishnamurthi) was very influential and his ayanamsa is often preferred to most common one (i.e., Lahiri.) I know that Bepin Behari has written many, many books. V.K. Choudhry has written a book detailing a dramatically simplified alternate system (Systems Approach) which has found favor with some Westerners. The most important Western astrologers whose books introduced Vedic astrology to the U.S. and Britain are: Ronnie Gale Dreyer, James Braha, David Frawley, Robert Svoboda, Hart deFouw, Richard Houck and Dennis Harness. I don't personally know which astrologers wrote about Jyotish in other Western languages. --N.Harris NaySay 1/24/06 18:06 (UTC)

THANK YOU VERY MUCH NaySay for all of the wonderful information -- I just figured that because Astrology is still fairly respected (and relatively huge!) in India that it would make sense to include more Jyotish astrologers on this list; the list seemed too Western-centric and I want to try and fix that, so if you know of other astrologers with non-Western nationalities (Chinese/Japanese/Asian astrologers, or ancient Greek/Roman, Arabic, African, South American, etc.) go ahead and include those here too if you want! Unfortunately, I am only versed in Western astrology at this point in my life (though I don't use the signs or houses anymore: I focus on the aspects almost exclusively) so I have never heard of the bulk of the authors that you mentioned; I do, however, own James Braha's book on the astrological aspects (How to Be a Great Astrologer: The Planetary Aspects Explained (1992) -- ISBN 0935895027) and I like that book a great deal, even though it does have some fluff in it. Thanks again for the info -- you've been very helpful and I really appreciate your time. --152.163.101.7 06:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Well Braha does both Vedic and western astrology, although most of his business now is for Vedic, I'd think. This is also true of Ronnie Dreyer and was true of the late Richard Houck. But Braha is an American who found Hinduism here and traveled to India, where he learned Jyotish. He wrote the first western book on the subject (by a westerner, anyway) called "Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer." It's still one of the best. Dreyer also traveled to India to learn astrology. In those days, that was pretty much the only option you had. As for the the ancient Greek, Roman and Middle Eastern astrologers, I've been adding articles for those Wiki didn't have over the past few months, and so have others. I've done articles for Paulus Alexandrinus, Olympiodorus (the Younger), Antiochus of Athens, Rhetorius, Vettius Valens, Hephaistio of Thebese and Dorotheus of Sidon. Their names are on the list, as are Julius Firmicus Maternus, Ptolemy, and Marcus Manilius, which other editors did. I'll get around to some of the Arabs and Persians eventually, but it is my intention first to do an article on Guido Bonatti, the important medieval astrologer. I don't know a single Asian astrologer. There are a few Western books, but most are superficial and commercial. Why don't you investigate? --N.Harris NaySay 1/26/06 14:23 (UTC)

• The first book by a westerner about Vedic astrology was "Constellational Astrology" by Robert De Luce (De Luce Publishing Company, Los Angeles, CA, 1963). However, I believe Indian authors have been writing about Vedic astrology in English long before that. Just as an example, H.R. Seshadri Iyer, published his two volume work on "New Techniques of Prediction" (Rohini Printers, Bangalore, India) in 1963, introducing his system. Those books, however, did not reach Western audiences. That said, it is beyond a doubt that James Braha´s book "Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer" (Hermetican Press, N. Miami, FL, 1986), has been very influential work to popularise Vedic astrology it in the West. Ramayan 07:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sub-division

• It might be helpful to divide the astrologers into subsections based on the astrological system used, e.g. Sidereal Astrology (mostly Vedic) and Tropical Astrology (mostly Western). There are other possible categories, such as Ancient Astrology (mostly Arabian, Babylonian and Greek, but also Vedic), Medieval Astrology (western), Humanistic Astrology (modern Western psychological astrology), etc.. Finally, there are branches like Chinese Astrology, Mayan Astrology, Tibetan Astrology, etc.. However, perhaps there is not enough known about their chief proponents. Ramayan 06:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Astrologer article

Instead of astrologer redirecting to this article, is there any reason why "astrologer" isn't its own article much like astronomer is? Sam 00:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I created the article, though as of now it's very sparse. Sam 22:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)