Talk:List of people convicted of treason

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Maybe Karl Rove shouldn't be on here yet, even if i think he is a Traitor, scoundrel, and all around dirty trickster. He's a bad person. But, this being a encyclopedia.. should he be on here yet? has be been formally accused of treason yet?

Right, too soon to label him, to know what really happened. Plus we need to know if he was following anyone's orders.GangofOne 02:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Rove again 2 Rove.. 3 Purpose and Definition 4 France 5 USA 6 USA- Christopher Cote, Traitor to His Half of the Species 7 Czech Republic 8 William Joyce

[edit] Rove again

This could be a big can of worms; I hate Rove and think his long history of dirty tricks (that would have landed a lesser man in prison) should be blared on TV every opportunity the media gets, although for the sake of keeping Wikipedia neutral, the time for him to be listed as an "accused" traitor on this board is not yet here, though i have no doubt it will be here soon. I believe the meaning of "accused" here would mean by some official accusation of a public figure. Otherwise we could potentially list anyone here, from Bush to Clinton, for various acts of office.

Apparently, being smart and disagreeing with you is a dirty trick, huh? You probably meant acts of offence, not acts of office, as anyone who holds any position in any organization commits "acts of office". But I would expect nothing less, given how your comment started.

[edit] Rove..

OK, this rove thing is getting old - its between me and apparently one person who hasn't created an account, so i can't discuss this directly with him. My position: Adding KR right now isn't appropriate - he hasn't been accused formally. He's in good standing with the US Government. Do i have any recourse at this point, or do i let someone just sit here and turn Wikipedia into a political forum, no matter how much i agree with them?

I want to add Rove to this list very badly, but it wouldn't be NPOV. Rove is too well connected to the current regime... which is really sad. Look at FEMA and Mike Brown. The level of cronyism is terrible. Whatever happened to civil servant examinations?

Political appointees don't get them. Take a class about U.S. government and/or history and you'd understand that.

[edit] Purpose and Definition

Although I have contributed quite a lot of names to this article, I am left wondering what the purpose of it actually is. Having just rearranged the USA section into alphabetical order, I was left gob-smacked at the number of people there that had actually been convicted of treason; only a tiny proportion actually were/have been. Since many of the people listed are still alive, I consider it to be very shaky legal ground to list people that 'may or may not' have been convicted of or thought to have committed treason. The charge of treason is such a stigmatic one that even those that were convicted of related crimes, but not of treason, would have grounds to complain. Barring that problem, a list of people's opinions of others' actions is not encyclopaedic, whereas a list of people's criminal convictions (or even acquittals) is.

Thus, I suggest that the article be renamed List of persons convicted of treason, that the names of those not convicted of treason be removed, and that the introductory paragraph be rewritten to serve the new purpose: listing those people that can have no defence against the charge that Wikipedia levels. If others consider it necessary, another article, along the lines of List of persons acquitted of treason would be acceptable, but mixing the two together, without any distinction, is unacceptable.Bastin8 15:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• I agree, this is an eminently sensible suggestion. Let's just list convicted traitors. Lisiate 01:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Finally, somebody noticed what I wrote! There's no point the article opening by criticising the differing standards and then ignoring the standards. As far as I can tell, the following people should be omitted on those grounds:

Canada: FLQ

England: Queen Mary I

France: Alfred Dreyfus (exonerated), SS Charlemagne Division (replaced by notable members that were convicted or a note to the effect that not all of them were found guilty), Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy

Hungary: Döme Sztójay, Ferenc Szálasi, Mátyás Rákosi, János Kádár

Poland: Wojciech Jaruzelski

Scotland: Colin Campbell, John MacDonald

Sweden: Gustav Trolle

United Kingdom: Norman Baillie-Stewart, Frank Bossard, British Free Corps (as SS Charlemagne), Cambridge Five, Klaus Fuchs, the Jacobites (as SS Charlemagne), George Washington

United States: Aldrich Ames, Benedict Arnold, David Barnett, Herbert Boeckenhaupt, Christopher Boyce and Andrew Daulton Lee, Anthony Cramer (overturned by Supreme Court), Christopher Cote (who is a traitor to which half of which species?), Larry Wu-Tai Chin, Officers of the Confederacy (as SS Charlemagne), Iyman Faris, Ronald Grecula, Robert Hanssen, Alger Hiss, Edward Lee Howard, Tyler Kent, Fritz Kuhn, Timothy McVeigh, Ahmed F. Mehalba, Richard Miller, Harold Nicholson, Ronald W. Pelton, Jonathan Polard, William Perl, Ezra Pound, Earl Edwin Pitts, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg, St Patrick's Battalion (as SS Charlemagne), John Anthony Walker, John Walker Lindh

Others: Ephialtes (declared a traitor, but was he convicted in absentia?), Alcibiades, Brutus (as Ephialtes), Cassius, Ludwig Beck, Judas Iscariot

I don’t know all of the Armenian, Chinese, or Soviet entries, nor am I familiar with Bernardo de Monteagudo, so I decided not to try to decide if they should be included.

Whilst I acknowledge that this would substantially decrease the length of the article, it creates a stronger framework within which others can be included without any arguments. For example, the four Hungarians removed from the list could be replaced by considerably more without the new inclusions being tarred by the perjorative use of the term 'treason': Nagy, Rajk, Szonyi, Szalai, Palffy, etc.

If nobody objects to this idea in the next few days, I'll press ahead with the above changes, and include a new tranche, consisting of those that have been found guilty of treason. Bastin8 18:34, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

• I think it's a great idea, but it may pay to give people at least a week to comment before proceeding (and put a new heading at the bottom to explain what's happening). Lisiate 08:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

A week it is. If there are no exceptions, on Friday, I'll make the changes. In the meantime, I'm trying to find out about the people with whom I'm not familiar, so that I can do it all in one go. Bastin8 22:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, it's a bit late, but I'm doing it now. Bastin8 09:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] France

How can Louis XVI be listed a traitor? One cannot be a traitor to himself. After all, he was King of France, the state was him.

[edit] USA

Benedict Arnold was not a traitor, the colonies owed alliegence to the United Kingdom, so a list of Americans should be included in the British section. Examples: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington. Were they not traitors to their King?

Whether they are to be considered traitors is a point of history. The facts are that Benedict Arnold was a commissioned officer, a general no less, of the Continental Army (which is not only seen as the precursor to the current US Army, but one and the same) and that he betrayed that loyalty.

What about the husband and wife couple who gave away nuclear secrets to the Reds? Ethyl and somebody somethin? I just can't recall.137.186.248.248 23:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

According to the treason article, they were convicted of espionage, not treason. Not a big difference, but one nonetheless.--Belgarion89 19:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] USA- Christopher Cote, Traitor to His Half of the Species

This sounds like BS, google turned up a composer, an illustrator and an author

Indeed, it is BS. Removed. Filthychimp 05:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Czech Republic

I suggest remove this section - in the 14 years of it's history, nobody was seriously accused or sentenced for the treason. Everything what could be written, can be written in section Czechoslovakia.

[edit] William Joyce

As explained in William Joyce, his citizenship was in fact United States up to 1940 when he took German citizenship. He was born in New York to a naturalised father. He was most certainly not an Irish citizen; Joyce was a strong opponent of Irish nationalism in all its forms. Sam Blacketer 16:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)