Talk:Loch

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Contents 1 Is loch English? 2 loch vs lough in pre-independance Eire 3 Sea loch, fjord and firth 4 Article rewrite? 5 Loch and Lough 6 "English administration in Ireland" 7 Loch vs Lake 8 Merge

[edit] Is loch English?

Is the word loch English? Or Scots? Or what? When is its use appropriate in the English language version of Wikipedia? Eg Loch Ness seems appropriate because it is a formal title, but I am not sure about Loch Ness is a loch. Should it be Loch Ness is a lake? Laurel Bush 10:11, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd say it's Scottish Standard English, therefore suitable for any article about a Scottish subject, just as one would use American English for a US article. Grinner 10:57, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] loch vs lough in pre-independance Eire

Out of interest, before the republic became independent, which spelling did maps reflect? Were they always spelled lough, or is the ubiquitous use of lough in the south an artifact of post-independance "irishification"? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:12, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I believe in Ireland a nearby loch or lough is often called 'the lake'. 'The loch' is more common in Scotland. Laurel Bush 15:43, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Sea loch, fjord and firth

From the article: "... it is also used for the many fjords on the western and northern coasts ... sea lochs should not be confused with firths, found mainly on the east coast of Scotland ..."

I believe the word firth is closely related to fjord: its origin is Norse rather than Gaelic. The Cromarty Firth and the Beauly Firth look to me very much like sea lochs. Laurel Bush.

[edit] Article rewrite?

I am about to try a little rewrite of the article for the following reasons:

• Loch includes Sea loch but this is not immediately clear in the article itself.
• The article should be primarily about loch and lough in English but effectively it confuses English with Scots and Hiberno-English.
• The article uses firth as a link while being quite inconsistent with Firth as an article.

Laurel Bush 12:16, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC).

OK. Ive done the rewrite and Im thinking now that Lough should be a separate article. The word is difficult to treat as simply an Anglicised spelling of loch. Laurel Bush 16:31, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Loch and Lough

See Talk:Lough#Lough and loch.

I've just edited the page on lochs after using Google Earth: I was surprised to find that the inlets immediately around Pearl Harbour are named as lochs.

[edit] "English administration in Ireland"

When the spelling lough was introduced to Ireland the administration might have been English-speaking, but is it correct to describe it as just English, rather than, say, British or UK? Laurel Bush 28 June 2005 10:12 (UTC).

[edit] Loch vs Lake

In a tourist guide about Scotland, I read that a certain body of water (unfortunately, can't remember which one it referred to) was "Scotland's only lake". Hence my question: Is there a clear difference between 'lake' and 'loch' and if, what is it? Jenny http://energy_star1.party.lu

As the article says, it's the Lake of Menteith. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

And as it says, believed to be from Laich meaning low place. ..dave souza, talk 21:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

This really should be merged with lough as there is no difference in physical characteristics or usage, except an national spelling difference. Is there even a pronounciation difference? We don't need two articles to describe the exact same thing. Rmhermen 15:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

"We don't need two articles to describe the exact same thing." - plenty of these on Wikipedia. I favour the spelling "loch" as it is used in both Scotland and Ireland, although the "lough" spelling is more common in Irish English. --MacRusgail 20:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

So lough is an English spelling: didna ken that, aye thought it was kinda Irish. Anyway, given the different locations and associations two articles seems best, but if enough people are desperate to merge then it should be into this, as the source name. Odds 68 to 23 + 18 = 31 in favour of Loch from the lists by my count, though the Loch list is obviously incomplete .. dave souza, talk 00:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Usage differs. Lake district and estuary bed are often prefered over lough district and lough bed, but not over loch district and loch bed. Simpler, to my mind, to keep the two articles separate. Laurel Bush 10:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC).

Agreed generally, but hard to imagine a "loch district" - it'd be the whole of Scotland! Nearest I can think of is the Trossachs. ..dave souza, talk 10:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Lough is nothing more than a piece of anglicised gobledegook. The only proper version is the original Irish and Scottish Gaelic loch. Lough should of course be mentioned in the merged article but only briefly. I think we are spending far too much time on this. Precedence should be given to loch, I think. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 14:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

note from a newbie - I got here by looking up loch - I doubt many people would find this by way of lough - in the intrest of user friendliness I would suggest merging under the article name loch, and leave the entry lough with the comment :'see loch '

Sorry. I cant see newbie's note above as in anyway a reason for the proposed merger. Perhaps it needs some elaboration? Laurel Bush 09:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC).

You may merge it, but use the word Loch...

Just delete "Lough" is my current thinking. Is there there a single lough which is refered to as such, with "l" lower case? Strangford, perhaps. Laurel Bush 13:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

Maybe I am about ready to see "Lough" as a redirect to "Loch". Laurel Bush 09:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC).

Since it is the English WP, then Loch should redirect to Lough, which is the English version of the the Old Irish word Loch.

No. Loch is in long established use in English, for a class of entities (enlosed or semi-enclosed bodies of water) in Scotland. Lough is a name element, appearing in the names of bodies of water which are known, more generally, as lakes, sea inlets, an so on. Laurel Bush 14:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC).

I agree with Laurel, newbie, and 'An Muimhneach Machnamhach'. Loch definitely should not redirect to or be merged with lough. The Gaelic 'Loch' has been naturalised into English with a specific context, just as have thousands of other words, e.g. ukase, kindergarten, tortilla, stoop, crêpe. 'Lough' was/is a Chaucer-era anglicisation of 'loch', later imported into Ireland by the English invaders and now used affectedly or by people (like me til about five minutes ago) who think it's the Irish Gaelic spelling.

If anything, 'lough' should be made a footnote in this entry, since the standard words today are loch and lake. Katzenjammer 17:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Really, I think Loch and Lough are on a par with each other. They really are for wikidictionary. 86.42.141.109 22:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

If loch is 'for Wikidictionary', then so is firth. Laurel Bush 09:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC).