Talk:Logan International Airport

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Logan International Airport is part of WikiProject Massachusetts, an effort to create, expand, and improve Massachusetts-related articles to a feature-quality standard.

Regarding Air Canada in Boston: I just collapsed AC and AC Jazz into one line. The two carriers routinely swap service between cities. So for instance, today there are only Air Canada flights from Toronto to Boston. On the weekends, it's a mix of AC and AC Jazz. Check the AC timetable if you don't believe me.

Also, Quebec City nonstop flights have been announced and come to Boston this June. Vancouver nonstop flights return on July 2.

There has also been confusion about Air Canada in Terminal E. Only flights from cities without U.S. Customs and Immigration Preclearance land at Terminal E. In terms of Canadian city, this means flights from Quebec and Halifax must land at E. Halifax just won the right to have preclearance facilities, but they are not yet up and running. When they are, these flights will arrive at Terminal C like the flights from Montreal, Lester B. Pearson International Airport|Toronto, Ottawa, and Vancouver.

Contents 1 removal of 9/11 information 2 Why does Apple Island redirect here? 3 Terminal Change 4 Runway 15L - 33R 5 Logan Airport expansion 6 9/11 Lady Suicide 7 Runway 14-32 8 New Diagram 9 Terminal E/D Name Change 10 Ground Handling? 11 Trivia section 12 Inaccurate information about Terminals A and E 13 2007 Runway Incursion

[edit] removal of 9/11 information

While I (and everyone else) sympathyze with the September 11 terrorist attack victims, and with the airline employees who lost their lives that day, removal of pertinent, encylopedic information regarding the fact that two of the planes from that day departed from Logan is 1) probably in violation of Wikipedia standards; 2) probably an act of censorship; and 3) highly un-encyclopedic at the least. Experts (editors), please comment. Thanks Trevormartin227 02:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

If you want to put it in, fine. Airline employees are just sick of their place of employment being referred to as a terrorist weak spot than their place of employment (the airport itself). I'll restore it. Snakes

I am certainly not a Snake, and I'll thank you to avoid personal attacks. This is an encyclopedia, not an advertising site, not an employee-morale sight, and certainly not a place for personal attacks. Thank you for maintaining civility. Wikipedia is a collaborative encylopedic project, and I'm happy to hear that you will restore the fact-based information. Trevormartin227 02:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Snakes is an internet handle. I was not referring to you with it. I should have put a hyphen in front of it. It was not meant as an attack. Sorry for the confusion. The information has been restored.

We're cool. I wiki linked your sentence that you restored, FYI. And again, sorry for your loss (personal or otherwise) that day. Trevormartin227 02:56, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Sorry I let my personal feelings interfere.

[edit] Why does Apple Island redirect here?

There is no mention of any Apple Island in the article. older ≠ wiser 02:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Apple island is the island on which the airport is located. --KPWM_Spotter 21:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminal Change

It has been made known to Terminal C Employees (I am a JetBlue Crewmember) that Continental will be moving out of Terminal C by the end of this year, and is probably going to be located in Terminal A (JetBlue will be taking their gates). The information has not been listed on the net yet, so I have no sources to cite, but I didn't know if you wanted to list the possible change. If MASSPORT comes up with any documents I'll post a link. User:neo16287 02:44 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Runway 15L - 33R

The article states that runway 15L-33R is 2557ft long. As this hardly justifies categorisation as a major runway (all Logan's other runways are 7000ft or more) I reduced the count of major runways to 4. Anonymous editor 209.6.182.19 reverted this with the comment The runway is only listed as 2,557 feet as that is the area with which it is normally used during normal operation. It is in total the same operational length as 15R/33L.

If this is correct then there is something seriously wrong with both the map and arial photo on this article. Both map and arial photgraph clearly show 15L-33R running from left to right just to the north of main runway 15R-33L. It barely stretches further than the gap between runways 4L-22R and 4R-22L. If it was indeed as long as 15R-33L, then the photograph shows that large portions of it would be under water. And of course there would be no need to build the proposed new 14-32 runway. I have changed the major runway count back to four. -- Chris j wood 00:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

What I think occured is the anon editor mistook 15R-33L for runway 4R/L. It could happen. Although MASSPORT has listed it as a major runway. Seeing as BOS is a commuter hub (also said by MASSPORT), this would constitute a major runway, if only for the large amount of commuter flights originating and terminating at BOS. Agree? -- User: neo16287 22:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Having reflected on this, I'm not sure why we need to make the distinction between major and minor at all, with its attendent POV risks. After all, we list all the runways with their principal characteristics. Probably best to let the reader make that distinction, if it is important to them. -- Chris j wood 08:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Back in 1988, Massport had proposed filling-in of land to extend Runway 15L/33R by 800 feet. This runway crosses a major clam bed and fishing area, which was one of the arguments invoked by opponents trying to shoot down the proposal. I would like to include this information on the main page but need the name or designation of the clam bed in question. Boston-area fishermen or mariners may know the answer to this. Thanks.

There's been a lot of discussion on this website lately about Runway 15L-33R. Some dispute the notion that it can be designated as a "major" runway. I think all airports, regardless of their size, are required by the FAA to make this classification regardless of the runway's length, width, and use. With 14-32 having already been constructed, the future of 15L-33R remains uncertain. It is virtually unused as it is, and will become virtually obsolete as a result of the new runway. I think Massport may elect at some point in the near future to eliminate this runway altogether and redesignate it as a taxiway, which is really the only purpose for which the runway is currently used. If nothing else, this would be a purely symbolic gesture of goodwill towards the local communities who despise any form of airport expansion. Logan is small enough in terms of land as it is so it seems pointless and confusing to have six runways in any event. Reducing the number to five would simplify the airport diagram and make things easier for pilots and ATC.

It could also provide greater access around Boston Harbor for boaters, who (I would imagine) have to abide by strict guidelines when crossing the approach paths of any runway. Why inconvenience them for the sake of a runway such as 15L-33R which is virtually unused by aircraft anyway?

I'm not sure what this would entail. You'll recall that back in 2003, the city of Chicago was fined by the FAA after Mayor Daley bulldozed the runway at Meigs Field. But remember that 15L-33R is a short VFR runway without any published approach procedures. Getting rid of it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Maybe somebody can weigh in on this? --Sean 2015 14:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

All I heard about such while I worked at BOS was that this runway was designated as a runway for secondary situations, such as use by smaller connection carriers during IROP (irregular operating) situations. THis could include a variety of situations from weather conditions to inflight emergencies. It wouldn't do much for a 747 with a case of appendicitis aboard, but a Cape Air Cessna with a case of such would be able to be granted primary clearance without disrupting normal operation.........unless it's around 5pm eastern and November taxiway is loaded with the Europe departures, which tend to clog the taxiway around that time of day. Other than that, there's not much use. As for reducing it to a taxiway, MASSPORT didn't tell us anything about it. But in the time I worked at the airport, I never saw any aircraft use 15L-33R as a poor-man's taxiway. could mean anything. Neo16287 14:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If you go to the following link http://www.massport.com/logan/airpo_noise_runwy.html, you can view statistics on runway use by jet aircraft at Logan. For whatever reason, Massport doesn't even include statistics for Runway 15L/33R (the website only says that the runway is too short for use by jet aircraft). I would venture to guess that statistics on this runway are omitted because it is too seldom used to produce any worthwhile statistics.

15L/33R was constructed to accommodate the smallest aircraft and free up the larger Runway 33L for use by the heavier jets that require it. At 2,557 feet, 15L/33R represents one of the shortest (if not THE shortest) runway length that I know of at any major airport in the United States.

I don't agree with your point that it was constructed for emergency situations. Any aircraft in distress, regardless of size or weight, has priority over all other traffic and can land on any runway they choose. Also, regarding the point you made about Taxiway November interfering with aircraft rolling out off of 33R, this would not be an issue since 15L/33R would NEVER be in use during "south-flow operations" when Runways 27 and 22L are used for arrivals, 22R for (mostly domestic) departures and 22L for the Europe departures which require more take-off space. 15L/33R is ALWAYS closed whenever 22L and/or 22R are in use.

I think reducing it to a taxiway would be beneficial to Massport and the FAA insofar as it would allow them to blunt criticism from neighboring communities who are so vehemetly opposed to any form of airport expansion. The idea of reducing the number of runways would come as some relief to nearby residents--even if it means simply eliminating a runway which, for all intents and purposes, never gets used anyway. In addition, this would simplify the airfield layout and make the airport diagram easier to read for pilots.

In this scenario, Runway 15R/33L would lose its left-right designator and become, simply, Runway 15/33. This could also prevent possible confusion or misunderstanding once 14/32 goes into effect. Pilots of mid-size turboprop aircraft who, up until this point, have been accustomed to using Runway 33L for landings, are going to have to acquaint themselves with the new approach.

Those who are familiar with aviation terminology and pilot-ATC chatter know that oftentimes, when two paralell runways exist at an airport, controllers and pilots will refer to a runway by its left-right designator and omit its number. For example, if an aircraft is cleared to land on a given Runway 4L, the pilot may read back his landing instructions as something like: "Roger, cleared to the left side". Now consider this for a moment. In this case, Runway 33L is the right-sided of these two paralell runways yet it retains a "left" designator...you see where I'm going with this?

I should also point out that 15L/33R, unlike 14/32, is not unidirectional. Theoretically it could be used for departures and arrivals in either direction, but in reality this is not possible since the runway is too short as we've already mentioned, and Massport is barred by a 1988 court injunction that prevents filling in land to extend this runway any further.

What it all boils down to is that when you have something you don't use, you just get rid of it, whether it's an old coat hanging in your closet that you haven't worn for years, or a car that's parked in your driveway that's costing a fortune to insure.--206.252.74.40 20:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dude. First, cool off and take a chill pill. I never said Massport constructed it for emergency situations. They said thats about the

only use they have for it left. They can't remove it, nor can they reduce it to a taxiway. It is staying the way it is. How do I know this? I work at the damn place. I dont need civilians to tell me that "it is ALWAYS closed during this time." If you want to preach, then preach. But Massport can not get rid of it. The reason being it is not cost efficient. Would you spend millions to remove a runway and then put in a taxiway? As for the residents of Eastie who feel that they lived there before there was an airport (look on the anti sites, they actually say that), the airport will continue to expand. Massport's plan to build a new mid-field taxiway will go forward. It doesn't matter. Another reason why Massport won't remove 15L/33R. They won't spend the extra money when they have actual projects to do. Now, sit back and wait for Massport to remove the runway. I'll see you in 20 years in the same spot. --BOSton 17:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Look, you don't have to get snippy about this. I wasn't talking about "getting rid" of a runway and "putting in" a taxiway. All I suggested was redesignating it as a taxiway, which basically simply entails repainting it. We're not talking anything major here along the lines of a multi-million dollar construction project, are we? 15L/33R is a tiny VFR runway with no published instrument approach procedures; it doesn't take "millions" (as you're suggesting) to repaint it, does it?

I don't know what exactly I wrote that caused you to get so bent out of shape, but for your information I'm actually on "your" side as far as airport expansion. I'm a resident of Winthrop, and I actually "supported" the construction of Runway 14-32. I'm about the only permanent resident of the entire town of Winthrop that supported the new runway, even though I despise Massport for the evil empire that it is (just like everybody else does), and furthermore would have preferred to see Runway 14-32 built to a longer length than just 5,000 feet. Massport could've filled in additional land beyond Governor's Island flats and make 14-32 into a nice long runway (of 10,000 feet or so) to allow the heaviest transatlantic departures to take off over the open waters of Boston Harbor to the southeast of the airport, so that they wouldn't have to use Runways 4R and 9, which are two of the most noise-sensitive runways at Logan.

But of course, this will never happen, because Massport is too cheap and all the nearby NIMBYs who live around the airport are too stubborn to back any type of airport expansion proposal, even those which could possibly benefit them.

Yes, I agree with your point that people are idiots for saying that they were here before Logan was (which is a totally false thing for a person to say unless that person was living in Winthrop/East Boston prior to 1923 when the airport first opened, which most residents obviously weren't). I invoked this very same argument myself when I made my case for 14-32.

And contrary to what you're inferring, no, I'm not just some "civilian" who is "preaching" misinformation. I'm a licensed pilot and lifelong resident of Winthrop; I would think I know a thing or two about aviation and airport operations, especially when that particular airport happens to be only a few hundred feet from my house. What credentials do you have that make you any more of an expert on this subject than me or anyone else? Furthermore, the fact that you work for Massport does not (by definition) mean that you're not a civilian yourself (and on that note, how do you know whether I'm a 'civilian' anyway when I never specified this?)

I'd be happy to call you on my dime to discuss this further if you want to IM me your number at Massport where you can be reached, but I stand by what I said about Runway 15L/33R.

Doesn't sound like a Massport employee to me. Probably works for a BOS FBO. You know what I mean? But contrary to what he says, I think removing the runway markings would be smart, even so as to eliminate confusion. Sean, you said you made a case for 14-32? This interests me, how were you involved? I too was for the runway construction (I worked for JetBlue during its construction), and I'd like to learn more. Plus, I am interested in becoming a commercial pilot one day, so I'd like to start learning now (I'm currently at college, but hope to enroll in flight school shortly after). Neo16287 23:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logan Airport expansion

Thanks Neo for backing me up on this. I'm not sure who this "Boston" fellow is though, or why he weighed in on our debate and responded directly to me since I wasn't even addressing him in the first place

I've read some of your other contributions to this website and I'm impressed with your knowledge of the history and operations of Logan.

I was an active participant in my local town meetings beginning in the late 1990s when the airport runway controversy was just tarting to heat up again. I proposed what I thought were several viable alternatives to the building of 14/32, such as an extension of Runway 15L/33R to 8,000 feet or so, in order to create a higher percentage of approaches and departures to the southeast of the airfield (I was then made aware of the 1988 injunction which barrs Massport from filling in land along the area in question).

I also proposed the construction of a much longer, 10,000 foot runway 14/32 in order to provide the largest, noisiest jets with an alternative over more noise-sensitive runways such as 4R and 9. Local residents were in favor of increased flight paths over the southeast but were vehemently opposed to my suggestions and wouldn't budge. Even residents of Winthrop (which was one community that would actually see a reduction in noise as a result of 14/32) were opposed to the construction of the new runway. It seemed like people were only interested in saying "no this, no that" without offering any substantive solutions or alternatives themselves.

Attaining a career as a commercial pilot is certainly attainable as long as you're prepared for the hard work (and expense) that goes into it. I wish you luck on that. You said you were interested in obtaining additional information; what can I help you with? --206.252.74.40 18:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey. The main question I have is where did you train, and how much did it cost? I have heard many varying figures, but one flight school has really caught my eye, and that is Delta Connection Academy in FL. According to my contact, I'd be looking at $60-90,000 over the course of two years while I get my FAA quals and build time. Do you have any info about the academy? Thanks man. Neo16287 22:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a private pilot's license. I'm not an airline pilot so I can't give you an exact figure on what you're looking for, but I can give you a basic idea. To earn your private pilot's license, you can nowadays expect to spend anywhere between $7,000-$10,000 including airplane rentals, instructor/exam fees, books and supplies. The FAA requires a minimum of 40 hours to earn your license but in reality people don't get it until they have more like 60-70 hours. It would cost me an additional $5,000 or so to earn my instrument rating, which is the next step up. Most airlines would not consider you for a position unless you had a minimum of 1000 hours with a minimum of 500 or so in multi-engine aircraft. I'd say the figures you quoted ($60,000-$90,000) would be about enough to get you to that level. You're still young so you can always consider applying to the Air Force or Air National Guard (as long as your health--and particularly your eyesight--is good).

I did all of my training at Hanscom Field in Bedford. There are two flight schools at that location, East Coast Aero Club and Executive Flyers. You can google each one and visit their website for more details. I don't think it's necessary to relocate to Florida as this will create additional expenses for you. The key to successful flight training is to fly consistently (roughly one day a week); I had to interrupt my training a couple of times due to college studies and lack of money, and this resulted in longer training and even additional expenses. Flying in New England has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that you will learn how to fly in difficult weather, windy conditions and busy airspace. The disadvantage is that those same three factors may keep you grounded on some days, therefore prolonging your training. Any other questions just feel free to ask. --Sean 2015 14:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 9/11 Lady Suicide

Can we get a reference on the new fact that the lady who checked in the 9/11 hijackers ended up comitting suicide?

We really do need a reference here because this information, if verifiable, is newsworthy and deserves to be included in the article.

[edit] Runway 14-32

I recently called Massport to inquire about the status of the new runway. According to the Environmental Management Unit, construction on Runway 14-32 is now 100% complete and all necessary paintings and markings have been added. Construction lasted approximately two years. The new runway will be commissioned on Novmber 23, 2006. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sean 2015 (talk • contribs).

I hope that I am using this talk page correctly. My comment is on the above mentioned subject "Runway 14-32." As Sean 2015 has correctly stated, Runway 14-32 is currently active. The image shown on the right side of the 'page' that deals with the aforementioned runway is out-of-date. A new diagram is available at http://download.aopa.org/ustprocs/20070215/airport_diagrams/00058AD.PDF I would try to replace the old link to this new link but I was hesitant to do so because it is located on a website and I am unclear regarding its usage policy (i.e., copyright.) Njg123 01:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Njg- Me and Sean have been trying to replace the image, but have only run into trouble. For some reason it doesn't want to let us link it. We have no idea why. The new diagram has already been uploaded onto wikipedia, it's listed under "Image:BOS Airport New.png" Neo16287 01:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Diagram

Hey guys, I tried uploading the new FAA diagram showing runway 14-32, but hit dead ends. Can anybody here give it a try and maybe you'll have better luck? The image is called "Image:BOS Airport New.png" Neo16287 21:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Neo, I've been trying to do this exact same thing myself ever since the new runway opened up back in November. I haven't had any luck at it. Maybe we can get somebody else to take a crack at it? --Sean 2015 14:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I seconded that; the aiport diagarm is 17 years old and needs to be updated. I could not find any FAA maps of Logan

Again, we're working on it, but it doesn't want to link. The new article has already been uploaded, but it won't link when we try to make it. Neo16287 01:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think I got it. Pentawing^Talk 02:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It lives! Good work Pentawing. Neo16287 02:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terminal E/D Name Change

I called Massport and asked them about the Terminal designator change. The people who answered my call told me that they do not yet have an exact date for the change, but it will not be any time soon. Does anybody know when it was originally supposed to be? Neo16287 20:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ground Handling?

Does anybody think listing ground handlers and FBOs would be a bad idea? I have the info, but I didn't want to post it without asking if there were any objections. Neo16287 18:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Probably FBO, but not really with ground handlers (I thought that each airline handles its own ground handling services). At the same time, information concerning cargo handling and general aviation are lacking. The way the article is currently set up, one gets the idea that Logan is strictly a commercial passenger airport, which it isn't. Pentawing^Talk 18:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Local FBOs include Swissport, GlobeGround (now Servisair), and Signature. Ground handling is handled by individual airlines, with the exception of international carriers: Swiss, Lufthansa, Finnair, and Virgin Atlantic are handled by Swissport, and Aer Lingus, Air France, SATA, Icelandair, British Airways, Alitalia, AeroMexico, and TACV are handled by Servisair. Cargo services and GA would be a good addition. I can add the information if you like, I work at BOS and am familiar with the carriers. Neo16287 20:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead, but also provide a source if possible (for citation purposes). Pentawing^Talk 02:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I added as much as I could remember. When I'm at work next I'll check again to see if I missed any. Neo16287 03:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

I opened up a new trivia section within the article by mentioning that there was a scene from the film The Departed which was filmed on location at Logan. Should we keep this as a separate trivia section or should we move that statement to one of the existing sections? Perhaps there are other verifiable trivial "tidbits" about Logan that some of you out there can dig up, and which we can add to this section. Thanks. --Sean 2015 13:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• I prefer that any trivia found be integrated within the article itself without the need for a separate trivia section. The reason is that such sections invite a lot of unsubstantiated material to be included with no context to the rest of the article's material (e.g. "each level of Logan Airport's central parking garage is labeled with a prominent Boston area landmark" - exactly why is that important as it relates to the airport as a whole? And why mention this fact when other airports might be doing something along similar lines?). After a while, such lists become so large and unwieldy that it becomes almost impossible to verify and sort through. Pentawing^Talk 02:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccurate information about Terminals A and E

I never recognized this error until just now, but the article incorrectly states that Terminals A and E were "renovated", when in fact, both buildings were demolished in the early 2000s and two brand-new terminal buildings were built in their places. The article needs to be revised to reflect this. --Sean 2015 02:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• I corrected the error concerning Terminal A. However, I believe that Terminal E was renovated in that a new addition was added to the curb front area while the original terminal remained standing but was renovated (the same piers between the jetways and the passenger lounge still exist in their original layout). Pentawing^Talk 03:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Concur. If you go into the domestic arrivals (NWA) section of the ground floor of Terminal E, the original building still exists. The new structure was built over it. You can also see the original building from the taxi stand, and from the offices behind the British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, and Northwest ticket counters. Neo16287 06:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2007 Runway Incursion

I have heard nothing about this incident, and the lack of sources further questions its validity. Furthermore a possibly malfunctioning TCAS does not constitute a notable incident, and if that is the case, I propose the note be removed from the article, unless sources can confirm otherwise. Does anybody agree? Neo16287 18:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• I would agree. I haven't read or seen anything in the Boston media about the incident in question. In fairness, let's leave it up there for another week or so to allow the contributor to find and cite a source; if not we'll have to delete it. --Sean 2015 19:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)