Talk:Lu Sheng-yen
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This article was nominated for deletion on October 26 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
I am a lawyer in Seattle. The quote in the article from the appellate case cited is taken out of context to the point of libel. The decision involved a case where the temple had moved for summary judgment against SHC. When a court decides a summary judgment motion, it assumes the facts asserted by the nonmoving party (SHC) to be true (whether they are or not). The temple argued, allong with many other arguments, that even if you take SCH's asserted facts to be true, you still just have consensual sex between two adults. Claims against the temple should be dismissed, the temple argued, because two adults having consensual sex does not mean the temple did anything illegal or actionable. There is a big difference between a defendant making a legal argument that the claimed conduct wasn't illegal in any case, and conceeding as a matter of fact that the conduct happened. The appellate court, in the case cited, concluded the judge was right to dismiss the SHC's claims against the temple. -Roger in Seattle
Consentual sex? Who wrote this nonsense? This is pretty clever of someone trying to slander indirectly. This is obviously designed by some one who wants to show other people that a monk is still having sex so that it still looks bad to other people. What a terrible thing to do. What kind of person would do this? The temple never said that any sex had happened at all! I am more than willing to give anybody on here the Seattle temple's telephone number so you can verify yourselves!Dont take my word for it. Who ever wrote that come out of hiding and tell me who you are and who you represent, you coward.
Please read the Reference SHC VS SHENG-YEN LU It CLEARLY states that "The Temple also argues that the conduct in this case was distinguishable because it was merely consensual sex between adults, not intentionally tortious activity." This is a public and a reliable source. No one can argue with this.
Yes it just was argued by a lawyer and nothing was done about it. Why dont you reveal the real source behind the tibetan buddhism slanders. They came from the SHC website, and you know it. How the hell can you use this as a resource? As a matter of fact Sheng Yen Lu never said that his meeting with the Dalai Lama was anything other than ordinary. I know the whole story and what happened was an organization from Taiwan called the offices of the Tibetan Monastaries and said that this Sheng Yen Lu person is claiming that the Dalai Lama was endorsing him and saying that all the monks know that he is a living buddha and that Rinpoches are converting. This was all a lie. Of course the monks will probably respond negatively! They are not psychics! They are still human, what do you expect! As far as Sheng Yen Lu's claim that he taught at the monastary infront of thousands of monks; I have the proof if you are willing to open your mind to positive information about Master Lu! Dont take my word for it, go look up the Chinese book titled Grandmaster Lu's Holy Trip to India. There are pictures of him with a microphone teaching in front of a thousand monks. What more evidence do you need? There is also a picture of Master Lu's photo being honored with other rinpoches photos at different monastaries as well. Look it up yourself! Stop digging for slander, without looking at both sides of the story. You are so biased! So a ordinary monk says that you should not call yourself a "living Buddha" so what makes him the authority over that? Did Shakymuni Siddharta Gautama not call himself a Buddha? Rolls Royce? Do you even know what he drives right now? I do. Ill give you a hint, its not a rolls royce. Stop saying stuff you dont know. The reason I call you a coward is because you never have the guts to actually debate with me. You should be ashamed of yourself. Why dont reveal your identity? What are you scared of? That you will lose the debate? Dont be so silly. If I was a gambling man (im not because Im a buddhist) I would bet that you are actually affiliated with either Siew Har Chong (SHC) or Henry Chia and the E-Sangha forum. Am I right? My name is Lucas King you can email me at lukeking3@hotmail.com. Ive got nothing to hide. So come on out, and stop being so slanderous and then hiding behind a computer with no back argument. Coward! -Lucas
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[edit] Archives
[edit] Avoiding constant disputes
How can we avoid constant and endless warfare over neutrality issues? The best way to avoid warfare over bias is to remember that most of us are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it. We have to make it our goal to understand each others' perspectives and to work hard to make sure that those other perspectives are fairly represented. When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, "How can this dispute be fairly characterized?" This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides.
- "I am one of the "devoted followers" and I want to say that this new edit is very fair. Thank you for your even mindedness, I really appriciate your respect because this is very important. The recent is article is balanced and I wish not to see anyone change it back. Thank you for your courtesy!
Lucas
- In order to avoid disputes, please refer to Wikipedia:Verifiability, one of Wikipedia's three content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one other, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. The three policies are also non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. Verifiability is upheld by citing reliable published sources. Please remember to sign all of your posts on talk pages. Typing four tildes after your comment ( ~~~~ ) will insert a signature showing your username and a date/time stamp, which is very helpful. --A Y Arktos\talk 01:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Living people
Another thing to note is Wikipedia's policies on living people. Only the most reliable references may be used for things like the sexual accusations I have removed. That means that if it hasn't been published in a book or a peer-reviewed journal, it can't be mentioned in the article at all. Web-only references are not considered reliable in general, and can not be used at all for controversial criticism of a living person. This is not a personal bias of mine, but strict Wikipedia policy. —Hanuman Das 01:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Criticism
Please note that all criticism must be sourced and cited. It is not appropriate for a Wikipedia editor to make a judgement about a subject. It is only appropriate to report the judgements of others. To ensure that such judgements are third-party judgements and not the opinions of the editor, the source of the critical comparison must be cited. As I just said to Hanuman Das:
- I've done my best to help out with the defusing some of the inappropriate criticism. First, I don't see any definitive statement that he took monk's vows, from whom he took them, and whether or not he later abandoned them, nor dates for any of these events if they even occurred. Second, vegetarianism in Buddhism is the exception rather than the rule, as noted in Vegetarianism in Buddhism, so the fact that he does not prohibit eating meat is in no way unusual and thus not a valid criticism. In general, it is necessary to establish the facts or lay out the actual teachings with citations before presenting criticism of those teachings. One must also cite who has made the criticism. If the criticism cannot be cited to an actual person or organization, then it is original research and not permitted. The field of Buddhism is very large, with significant differences of doctrine between schools. It just won't do to have amateurs criticising a teacher of one type of Buddhism based on the rules of another!
If these guidelines are kept in mind, then the article will be much improved. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 17:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Monk issue
I dont understand this sentence, "at one point he claimed to be a monk." This sentence is trying to hint something dismissive or fake without any point. Master Lu became a monk, I think on his 30's and he is still a monk to this date. Also under the heading of CONTROVERSY, if the allegations of sexual misconduct were proven to be groundless in the court of law due to the lack of evidence, should these allegations still be considered as Controversies? I hope the page moderator(s) to consider these points. (19,November,2006)
- The problem is verifiability. So far, the only info on his monkhood which has been provided is a mention in a lecture which says something to the effect "at this time, I am a monk". What we need is a source which says when he became a monk, who ordained him, and that he still is a monk, since of course one can give back vows and go back to being a layperson.
- On the controversy issue, since there are reliable third-party sources that indicate that the controversy occured, I don't see what the problem is. Stating the facts in the media and citing them is the best way to keep further unveriable allegations out of the article. —Hanuman Das 16:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I think if you demand such stringent sort of documentation in regards to who ordained Master Lu and if he is still a monk, then to be fair why these demands are not required on citing for all other entries on Buddhist teachers cited in Wikipedia ? To give you an example on the page of Kalu Rinpoche, does not mention who has ordained him, yet we all know he IS a Buddhist monk. Certainly I can also provide with list of buddhist/Taoist teachers who Master Lu considers as his teachers, how can you verify if im not lying ? There are also photograhps from Leading authorities(monks)from the Tibetan lineage with Master Lu in traditional Buddhist ceremonies, by the way they wouldnt be there if he was fake, right? There are photos of Master Lu with Dalai lama also during his visit to India, but if i put it on WIKIPEDIA, i can assure you within 1 day it will be edited out by people less honorable(i dont mean you Hanuman das)
what you are asking is fair enough, but dont you think the influence of the people who are so against Master Lu is abit over the top?
In regards to the controvercy issue, can you cite who is this credible third party source that gives some sort of the credibility over these sexual misconduct allegations ? im sure you will struggle to find a third party with a neutral views. My main concern is there are plenty of people who are set in discrediting this monk at all possible means. I dont have a problem at people stating the facts in the media, but as you say mentioning yourself-FACTS, these allegations are not facts although reported by the media. Thus the title of controversies i think is disputable.
I respect your views (Haunuman das) i think i can provide you with all the info you want,but as you can see within days this page will get vandalised, all the information will be twisted just to ridicule this monk name.
- Please read WP:V. Facts do not need to be true on Wikipedia. There just has to be a citation as to where the information came from. If the source can be considered reliable by WP:RS then the fact can be reported. If not, it can't. I personally am uncertain as to whether Master Lu is still a monk. All I know is that he was at one time a monk. If you can find the details, great. While you are at it, get the years for his marriage and birth of his children so you can show that he took his monks vows after they were born. As for vandalism, that is standard on Wikipedia, no way to avoid it. However, there are several people watching the article and revert information added in violation of the rules about biographies of living people. My suggestion is that you create an account so that you also can put the article on your watchlist and make sure that all information added to the article has a source and is not just the personal opinion of another editor. I do this myself on several controversial articles, it woould be good to have more help on this one. —Hanuman Das 14:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, guidelines are guidelines no argument about that. Your scepticism about Master Lu monkhood, im sure is derived from reasons or information you have read or heard, i wont argue about this point, after all it is your personal opinion. Meanwhile i will search the information that you are requesting, hopefuly it clears the doubt on this particular point.
By the way, certain lineages within the trantic Buddhist lineage, the practice of celibacy is not required to the menbers of the shanga,(im NOT hinting they can practice free sex with anyone) for instance the Nyingmapa lineage of tantric buddhist sect, masters can have wives also, and many do so- I did not make this up. I guess this is why so many people are slandering Master Lu, as they dont understand, the differences between Mahayana shanga rules, as those of Tantric buddhist lineages.
Thanks for your suggestion, but my computer skills are rather simplistic...but i will put a word out to perhaps alliviating some of the headaches on this page.(Z)
- Well, just to set you straight, I am sure that he was a monk at one time. I am not sure whether or not that is still his status. I'm also aware of the lay lamas in the Nyingma lineage, so I know that the devil is in the details. Things are phrased the way they are to force those who want to say that "OMG he is a monk AND he is married" to find the sources for dates and details of both his monk's vows and his marriage. It's my understanding that he was married and had children before taking vows of celibacy, and accepted full responsibilty for continuing to support his wife and family after taking whatever vows he took. That is, I think, to his credit and belongs in the article as long as a clear source for the details can be found. —Hanuman Das 13:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I know Master Lu personally and this is the best I can do with the sources I have. He is still a monk, and there is no doubt about it. You can look up his recent pictures if you dont believe me. He said and is documented in his books that he was ordained in 1986. He has two children whom one is in her 30s and the son is married with children in his late 20s. So that in itself proves that he became a monk after his children are born. His wife, before he became a monk, is still apart of the scene. She is almost like a personal assitant. I will not deny this but he is completely celebate. They dont even sleep in the same room or anything like this. I have seen his sleeping quarters and there is no room for two. I can understand the other critics (alittle) because they are doing what they think is preserving the "orthodoxness" of their faith. Jesus said dont hate his persecuters for they know not what they do. I happend to have personally met SHC and I wish you would too because you would know that she is just a sick person. Shes crazy and anyone who would know her would agree that she is "alittle out there". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.176.113 (talk • contribs).
- If you could provide links to online sources, I'd be happy to update the article for you... Ekajati (yakity-yak) 20:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
In response to Ekajati and Hanuman Das, I'll try to find the only sources for the proof's, will respond in one week from now (Z).
im running extremelly late pls give me mroe time (Z)
- No problem. I've simply taken out the monk sentence, as it is not essential to the article. Details on his ordination(s) and status can be added any time a source can be provided. —Hanuman Das 15:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
