Talk:Mandala
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[edit] Buddhist mandala - "demon trap"
I believe I saw a TV documentary regarding Tibetan Buddhist monks making a mandala, in the manner described in the article. Once they were done (i.e. when they were convinced the mandala was an uncannily good representation of the world) they performed a ritual which (if memory serves) was intended to attract evil spirits (bad intentions, whatever). On arriving, the spirits would be fooled by the mandala, believing it to be the world itself, and would go inside it (hoping to do some demonic mischief, no doubt). Before they'd figured out the ruse, the monks would quit chanting and would destroy the mandala and (as the article says) sweep it away. This had the effect of destroying (or at least scattering) the demons. My question: is this a real practice, or just an artifact of my memory or a filmmaker's overactive imagination? If it is done, I think a (better written and sourced) section in this regard would make a good addition to the article. (or did I just reduce one of the world's great religions into a scene from Ghostbusters?) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:11, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Removal of GohonzonInfo site information, other external links
At first I thought this section and link would be good for those curious as to what the gohonzon looks like, but gohonzons are not available for viewing or downloading as the writer claims. On visiting the site at the ofther end of the link, it looks to me like this is more an advertisement intended to draw people to a more or less moribund mailing list (rarely more than two or three posts a month); I have therefore removed it.
The other external links that I've removed also do not point to further information on mandala, but rather to sites, some commercial, featuring artwork that draws on mandalas for inspiration but does not depict them directly. Yet another was a link to a self-proclaimed prophet of sorts and again was not related directly to mandalas. Jim_Lockhart 12:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] No sources
This article contains no referemces or sources. It could be vastly improved by addition of them. I will try to find some. Peter morrell 06:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Generic Mandala -- Other cultures
This page seems to be very "indio-centric" -- although the word is from this origin, mandala relates to similar objects in many cultures [1] -- why is there no mention of the aztec or inca civilizations
- If you know anything about it, feel free to add! rudy 21:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Doubtful sources
This page is awash with 'sources' at the moment, but certainly in the Buddhist section, these are very poor sources alltogether - there are too many guesses, interpretations and too little knowlegeable sources, please be careful with just copying info from mediocre websites... I hope to edit the buddhist section soon. rudy 00:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- well, you've made right mess of the article by removing much useful material...who says those links are bad? good wikipedians seek consensu first rather than arrogantly removing whole swathes of stuff...no single person is ultimate arbiter of what is right...and, in 36 years of studying dharma I have never seen it said that "the ring of flames repesents wisdom"...please give a citation for this POV addition before it is removed. Let us work for consensus as that is a very sound approach. thank you 213.40.131.65 19:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ooops! not logged in... sorry. Peter morrell 19:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry Peter, but I'm involved in Tibetan Buddhism for nearly 20 years now, which sources do you want? Is the Kalachakra tantra good enough? You have quoted many websites - among it also mine, but in my view you have mixed up various concepts and quotes out of context. Sorry, but if I see unreliable websites as 'sources' for incorrect info, I assume the person who put the text in here does not know too much about the subject. rudy 15:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- your titles, claims and years of practice count for nothing: answer my question: where is the citation to support the quotation you put in? When I see evidence for it then you will have the respect you crave. Please lay aside any tangible ego issue for you. It is a matter of factual accuracy. To claim that the outer circle is about wisdom is entirely inconsistent with manadala symbolism. The outer circles are about samsara, not wisdom. This you should know! Peter morrell 16:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- OK you have had ample time to supply the requested evidence and you have failed to do so. Let me show you some evidence then. Here is a good point: In mandalas, "beginning with the outer circles, one often finds the following structure: a ring of fire, frequently depticted as a stylized scrollwork, which symbolizes the process of transformation necessary to enter the sacred territory within."[1] That makes clear the transition I previously alluded to, from samsara to nirvana as one moves from the outer region of the mandala towards the inner sections. This text is from Rossi and Rossi, Tibetan Painted Mandalas, and is clearly a completely reputable source. It says nothing about the ring of fire symbolising wisdom, which is your claim.
Further: "The Ring of Fire: From vedic times, fire has been an essential ritual element. The outer circle of the mandala is often explained as a ring of fire, depicted by stylized scrollwork meant to represent flames. It has also been explained as the periphery of the universe, or the outer wall of the profane world, beyond which lies chaos. To begin the mystical journey, one must leave samsara, the world of phenomena, and pass through this flaming barrier to enter the sacred enclosure of the mandala. According to some interpretations, its purpose is not to terrify the aspirant from entering, but rather to show that the flame of the wisdom contained within the mandala can burn away ignorance and error. By means of the symbolic fire, understanding of supreme reality may be attained."[2]
This quote gives even clearer support for the viewpoint I have previously expressed here and in the parts of the article you removed without negotiation, that is arrogantly. But it also contains a reference to "according to some interpretations" the wisdom aspect you mention.
In summary then, I was right in what I said in the quotations you rashly removed. Now will you please acknowledge that I was right and that you were rash to remove NPOV material from the article? And then perhaps we can work on this article in harmony to improve it. thank you. Peter morrell 06:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Notes
- ^ http://www.asianart.com/mandalas/structure.html
- ^ http://dl.lib.brown.edu/BuddhistTempleArt/txtfiles/Symbols.txt
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peter morrell (talk • contribs) 05:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Western Mandalas
It would be great if someone could add a section about Western Mandalas in Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Although we don't call them Mandalas in the West things like Rose Windows, the illuminations of Hildegard von Bingen, Islamic geometrical art and Kaballist (eg the Cube of Metatron etc) imagery are Mandalas in all but name. Jung talks about this very thing in many of his works comparing Western to Eastern religion (eg his intro to The Secret of the Golden Flower). I sometimes wonder how we would sudddenly see our religions in the West if started thinking of them as Mandalas ie inner images of contemplation rather than just religious images. Who knows? Maybe I'll do it. :-)ThePeg 11:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] About this external link Free Mandalas ready to print and coloring for senior people
In this page to go to the mandalas click at the link "to the mandalas" at the end of page
Day by day will be there a big collection of mandalas, whose scheme of color has been chosen so that it does not cause confusions to the senior people, because there are not too similar colors.
This Link is not spam, is a sincere and serious supply to those who perhaps needs it more. Valvanera it is a real 89 years lady, who has been filling of sense part of her time coloring more that 200 mandalas, and want to share her positive experience. We, her relatives, do not agree with the deletion of this link because it has a clear social and cultural function. (unsigned comment by User:62.57.136.100 on 1 March 2007)
- For information about what is and is not consider spam on Wikipedia, please see WP:SPAM. Please note that this is not a matter of anyone's sincerity or seriousness or their positive (or negative, for that matter) experiences, but rather one of whether the link belongs in an encyclopedia—which I believe holds true for the other links on that page as well, many of which I also think should be removed! Wikipedia is also not supposed to be a link farm.
Surely there are more appropriate places on the Web where you and your family can reach your intended audience and Ms. Valvanera's works can be better appreciated. Good luck and best regards, Jim_Lockhart 13:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry so much, but I am not in agreement with your interpretation of which it says the guideline with respect to Spam with external links.
There it says:
"Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam."
This is not the case. This Link don´t tries to promote neither a Web nor a product. This Link tries to contribute with information on the way to find a specific type of mandalas : mandalas easy to be colored by senior people ( I do not see in this Article another Link with that information ).
I was thinking that in the flexibility of its inhabitants resided partly the greatness of Internet, and it seems that wikipedia share with me this thought when in the first paragraph of the guideline says :
"This page is considered a guideline on Wikipedia. It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception."
Mr Lockhart let me tell you that, imo, perhaps the first mandala in the world was the earth itself... where we have to live all together ;).
I don't want to revise my thoughts about the Net, please be a little flexible. Thank you.
