User talk:Mansbjorkman

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Hello, Mansbjorkman, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --CBDunkerson 14:00, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silvan

Hi. I like the chart you added to the Elvish languages article. However, shouldn't it show Silvan as being descended from both Avarin and Nandorin? Offhand, it looks like it was derived in large part from Quendi and Eldar... which I know places a greater emphasis on Avarin ancestry for the Silvan elves than some other texts, but even there the merged Nandorin/Avarin background (with some few Sindar and others thrown in for good measure) is specifically stated. --CBDunkerson 14:00, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Heh, this is likely to get exceedingly complicated. To address some of the points you made:

1. "Appendix F of The Lord of the Rings claims that the Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien were "East-elves", as opposed to "West-elves" such as the Sindar. The draft of the same text in The Peoples of Middle-earth (p.79) clarifies that "Eastern Elves" were those that "had hearkened no summons to the Sea ...". This seems to state clearly that the Silvan elves were Avari, and since this is what Tolkien wrote in the one text that he actually published, I have opted to follow that in the chart."

   First, note that LotR does not use the term 'Avari' (or 'Nandor') at all and thus cannot really be said to indicate that the silvan elves were one or the other. Once you bring in the existence of these groups from PoME and other texts could it not be said that the Nandor "had hearkened no summons to the Sea"? They certainly did so initially, but abandoned the march before reaching the Sea. In any case, LotR itself defines the "West-elves" as the 'Sindar and those elves who journeyed to Aman'... and the "East-elves" as all others. The Nandor did not journey to Aman and were not Sindar... and thus would either have to be accounted "East-elves" (from whence the Silvan elves came) or somehow left out of the equation entirely.

2. "However, I am not aware of any statement that the Silvan language was descended from both Nandorin and Avarin."

   I was referring to, "For in contrast the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together." WotJ, QE pg 381 (C. The Clan-names). Obviously this speaks of cultural merging rather than linguistic, but realistically the two are synonymous.

Other issues I would note would be that Legolas names himself "of the silvan folk" (FotR, The Ring Goes South) and also states that "deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the sea-longing" (RotK, The Last Debate)... yet we know from other texts that the 'sea-longing' was something which only affected those who set out on the great journey... which would include the Nandor, but not the Avari. Finally, we need to consider which Silvan elves we are talking about. The 'Laiquendi' of Beleriand in the First Age were sometimes called 'silvan elves' (or the synonymous 'wood elves') and were unquestionably Nandor. The uncertainty is thus whether the Third Age 'silvan elves' were related to this original group or an entirely different branch of elves with the same name. I tend to view the evidence as primarily supporting a 'Nandor with Avarin elements' origin for the Silvan elves, but as you say it is certainly somewhat confused with shifting definitions and disparate elements in the various texts. --CBDunkerson 19:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a note that I think the update strikes a good balance / explains the variations. Nice work. --CBDunkerson 23:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello...

Hey, I see you've gotten an account. Since you're most likely wondering who I am, I would be the one asking your permission to use the heraldic devices images. To reply to your last comment in the email, I'm probably thinking of using them in the House of Finwë page (after I clean up, expand, standardise, and merge House of Fëanor, House of Fingolfin, and House of Finarfin articles into House of Finwë article). However, the image link will show you what articles the images are placed in in a section called 'File links', as you can see here. —Mirlen 13:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't promise speed. I'll tell you one thing I'm not (most of the time): fast. :P Now, since you seem to be interested in becoming a Wikipedian editor, then I formally give you this invitation to Middle-earth WikiProject:

Hello, Mansbjorkman!

Thank you for your contributions to a Tolkien-related article. If you are interested, feel free to join WikiProject Middle-earth, a WikiProject focused on improving Tolkien-related articles in Wikipedia. We would be glad to have you join in the effort!

Here're some good links and subpages related to the WikiProject.

• Middle-earth WikiProject discussion
• Middle-earth WikiProject things to do - A compilation of all the tasks that are needed to do
• Middle-earth Standards (talk)
• Middle-earth WikiProject Portal

If you have any questions or concerns, don't hesitate to ask on our talk page.

Thank you for your contributions and have fun editing!

There you go, the formal message. But yes, the House of Finwë article is on my To-do list. —Mirlen 15:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The House of Finwë article is finally done, complete with your images! :) I changed the license to {{Symbol}} — which would be more specific than the generic tags, and fitting under the correct section. (BTW, if you don't want to join, then you can just say so — it's not a big deal to refuse — it's only if you have time and you're interested)! —Mirlen 20:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)