Talk:Marcus Garvey
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[edit] Opening comments
The article says "He was elected Emperor of Africa", but then mentions no more about it. More information about this election would no doubt be of interest. -- Infrogmation 19:08 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I have made a few modifications to elaborate upon the election, as well as, the convention where the election took place. Nazikiwe 16:37 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
For NPOV purposes I'm taking out "travesty of justice" and other loaded phrases.
[edit] Very Good, but still too POV
This is mostly well done and fascinating, but things like "could not have possibly been guilty" need to be either qualified or documented. After all, the Rosenburgs, Sacco & Vanzetti, Bruno Hauptmann, and Alger Hiss all at least could have been guilty, their suppporters notwithstanding. On the whole, I'd like to see more about the history of Black Star Lines and related enterprises.
Marcus Garvey was an influential black leader of the early 1900's. He supported the 'Back to Africa' movement. Those who did return to Africa ended up founding the country of Liberia. I gather he also is important to Rastafarians for some reason.
Actually, Liberia was founded by former Black American slaves long before the advent of Garvey. The article is lacking the details of why the UNIA was unable to manifest a self-reliant settlement in Liberia. I am currently researching this topic and hope to contribute a useful article to this aspect of the Garvey movement. --Barutiwa 18:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bibliography section too long?
I must say I do appreciate the extensive bibliography; however, it seems a bit too much. Pretty much half of the article is bibliography. I rather see more article text and less (but the most important entries) of the biblio. Alister 04:44, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Re: Bibliography Section
I agree with you Alister...it seems that info previously put in with a biblio reference has been taken out but the biblio left behind...this page has either been vandalised or "hyper" edited. That is certain facts have been removed. It seems that some of this info might belong on the UNIA page. That way some of the biblio refs can go there also.
[edit] In defense of neutrality and (Marcus Garvey)
My intention is not to coerce anyone into believing anything that is not true. I am grateful for the criticism...especially re: the NPOV. It motivates me to focus on the things that I know but don't really pay that much attention to.
Consider the following:
How many newspapers did the Rosenburgs, Sacco & Vanzetti, Bruno Hauptmann, and Alger Hiss publish, edit and distribute throughout the colonial empires of France and Britain that stirred the natives into restlessness?
How many organizations were they the head of ?
Did J. Edgar Hoover decry the fact that they had not committed any crimes that they could be convicted of before they were charged? Very interesting reading regarding the effort to find some crime that Garvey guilty of some crime. You would think that after doing a tax audit on him they would have found not reason to go any further. Its unfortunate that MMGs FBI file has yet to be posted on the FBI website. It was on microfilm, but I can't seem to locate it these days. It would be an excellent source to rebut any suggestion that Garvey was guilty.
Believe it or not, the total evidence used to convict Marcus Garvey was exactly one...empty...envelope. The prosecuting attorney suggested that the envelope contained a circular/flyer from Garvey advertising the stock for sale. Why if such a flyer existed could they find the envelope it contained but not the flyer itself? To this day not one copy of said flyer has ever been found. That in and of itself does not refute the legal principle which states "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". However it does lend credence to "reasonable doubt", because after all unless you have the flyer, how can you determine what it was on the flyer.
The trial judge was a member of the NAACP who refused to recuse himself before the start of the trial.
The jury initially came back without with a not guilty verdict on all counts. The judge told them that the US government had spent too much money on this trial and they were to go back and get another verdict.
--Nazikiwe 20:37, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- So what was Garvey alleged to have done? There is nothing in the article that states which law Hoover claims Garvey broke, & the omission of this fact makes it hard for people like me who know nothing about Garvey to judge its validity. -- llywrch 17:57, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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- Okay, I just noticed that the charges are stated in the section header, so the information is in the article, my mistake -- but could you add more information to this important event? It was too easy for me to skip by the mention of "mail fraud" -- whatever that entailed. -- llywrch 18:12, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Garvey and Rastafari
Have expanded this section and put reference at beginning. Rastafari is increasingly popular and well known so this facet of Garvey is likely to become more and not less important to wikipedia.Squiquifox 23:13, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Garvey and Du Bois
I hope this wasn't offensive. Although it seems like the feud between the two was kind of significant in the US portion of his story. If it was already well covered feel free to ditch it.--T. Anthony 09:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Garvey and Conversion
I put in that he converted to Catholicism, then someone else said Greek Orthodoxy. I kept it as I found sources that kind of agreed.[1] Although what that says, I guess, is that he became associated with a church that's now in communion with Greek Orthodoxy. However he did get married in the Catholic Church, other references also pointed that way, so now it's back to Catholicism. Which one is it? Or is it kind of both?--T. Anthony 01:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Appeal to authority and WP:Verifiability
User:Blockntackle added the following section and reference:
- Arrest
- In 1919 according to biographer Harvey Hancock, Garvey was arrested for the crime of sodomizing a twelve year old Harlem youth. New York City Police raided his home where they found a stash of homosexual pornography. However, in June of 1920, the sodomy and forcible rape case was dismissed when the family of the alledged victim settled for an undisclosed sum.
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- Hancock, Harvey P. Garvey: Heart of Darkness. Philadelphia: Lippincott, 1991
Because this is apparently in some book doesn't make it acceptable in an encyclopedia, see:WP:Verifiability, and Appeal to authority.
I know it's not the acid test, but a search on Google, Yahoo, and excite comes up with absolutely no relevant hits. You'd think that this book would have been quoted ad nauseum on various right wing websites.
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- Sir! My edit was properly sourced and I therefore don't understand why any editor writing from the NPOV would not want this verifiable item included in the article. It is a subject for speculation whether websites you would characterize as "right wing" would want to allude to this subject.
So I'm going to remove the "reference" until its verifiability can be asserted. Not only that, but also until we find out something about the author - I hardly think we'd accept references from Mein Kampf in the Jewish history page.
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- Sorry, but this reference is just as valid as the other print sources that have been listed for this article. Did you subject all of them to similar scrutiny?Blockntackle 19:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
While being wary of ad hominem-style attacks, I think a look at Blockntackles contributions shows that he has arrived at Wikipedia with a clear agenda, see this edit to Malcolm X:
- During his prison term, Malcolm was known to exchange sexual favors for illegal narcotics and preferential treatment from his fellow inmates. [2]
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- My only "agenda" is to share my knowledge of various subjects with my fellow Wikipedians. Is there some reason why you do not want the whole truth to be known about prominent Afro-Americans? Maybe you have anagenda of your own. Blockntackle 19:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed this and mentioned WP:CITE, though I should have mentioned WP:Verifiabilty too. The editor didn't attempt to replace it, I expect because his "reference" was his imagination.
Also, said editor has a rather bad habit of marking his entries as "minor edits". 
Camillus
(talk) 14:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
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- That, sir is a lie. I have only marked my MINOR edits as such Blockntackle 19:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
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- No, your edit history says that you marked your addition to the Malcolm X article as a minor edit. You have added contentious data to other articles relating to African-Americans and then followed immediately with a "minor edit" - only the "minor" edit shows up on the history.
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- My only "agenda" is as stated in WP:Verifiability. You have cited a book where the book title and even the author has not a single entry on various search engines, which is a legitimate reason to question it's verifiability.
Curiously, this allegation isn't in any bio of Garvey that I've read. Perhaps 'Blockntackle' would be kind enough to give us a full reference so that we can check with the sources that the author bases this claim on. It's an extraordinary claim, and not one I've seen any enemies of Garvey or Garveyism make before. I should add that I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination a Garveyite. fledgist 21:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm taking that paragraph out until it can be properly verified. fledgist 21:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
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- With all due respect sir, if you don't mind my saying so, you are a Black, and a Jamaican, not unlike Garvey. I can't help but think you may be a bit too emotionally invested in this, and not viewing the subject of this article with an objective POV, despite your protestations. My source is from a legitimate biography, published by Lippincott, a well-known publishing firm. Blockntackle 23:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm biracial, as a matter of fact which puts me in a category that Garvey despised. You might want to explain how my ancestry and origins determine how I think about Garvey. You might also explain why I can't find the book you cite listed on Amazon, Alibris, Melvyl, Catnyp, or the Library of Congress. I also searched the catalogues of the Atlanta University Center, Auburn Avenue, and Schomburg libraries (all focused on black studies) to no avail. fledgist 00:16, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've also removed the reference to the book in the bibliography because I have seen no evidence that such a book actually exists. fledgist 01:19, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know how much I could say, or how I could help: I just wanted stop by to say that any sourceable and verifiable info should be added regarding the first comment. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* 03:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Garvey and the KKK
As we're discussing allegations this is one I wondered about way back, but I don't know enough to say if it's accurate.
Among the most controversial dealings of Marcus Garvey was his summit conference with the Ku Klux Klan in 1922. "In June 1922, while on the extensive tour of the United States, Garvey stopped in Atlanta for a conference with Edward Young Clarke, Acting Imperial Wizard of the Klan. As a result of the discussions, Clarke expressed sympathy for the aims of the UNIA, while Garvey was reinforced in his suspicion that the Klan represented the invisible government of the United States." Consequently, black and white integrationists were protesting against the UNIA-KKK summit. However, Garvey concluded that "Between the Ku Klux Klan and the NAACP, give me the Klan for their honesty of pupose towards the Negro. They are better friends to my race, for telliing us who they are, and what they mean, thereby giving us a chance to stir for ourselves."[3] Their source being Race First: The Ideological and Organizational Struggles of Marcus Garvey and the Universal Negro Improvement Association by Tony Martin ISBN 0912469234[4].--T. Anthony 08:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I seem to recall that this is mentioned in Cronon's biography. fledgist 20:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Format/Biographical Details
It seems to me that most other biograhical pages in the Wikipedia start with origins (birth, education, etc.) after a brief capsule summary. This one starts (after the capsule summary) with "Founding of the UNIA-ACL" and "Garvey returned to Jamaica in 1914."
Um...returned from where? This is disorienting and poor narrative.
That section goes on, "Convinced that uniting blacks was the only way to improve their condition, Garvey launched the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA)and African Communities League (ACL) and became its first president."
OK...where did he come by these convictions? He must have had some base of support from which to "launch" the UNIA-ACL, but this goes completely undescribed.
More details about Garvey's early life and formative experiences, please.
[edit] Garvey returns to Jamaica
I agree with the above post. The text says that "Garvey returned to Jamaica in 1914". First of all, from the perspective of just writing a good article, it would probably be useful to say where he returned from--holiday in Belfast? (I believe it was from being a laborer in Costa Rica.)
Second, from the point of view of explaining Garvey's trajectory, it would be useful if somebody could develop a bit about his early experience outside of Jamaica, since this helped, I believe, to see the world in pan-Africanist (or Pan-Caribbean) terms, and see blacks in the Caribbean as exploited. I also believed that he tried to organize a trade-union amongst blacks in Costa Rica. I believe that there is an article by Ron Harpelle on this subject in the Journal of Iberian and Latin American Studies (2000?) but I do not have it with me and it would be useful for somebody to write a more comprehensive paragraph dealing with this.
[edit] Early life?
Why are there no details of his early life?
I guess there aren't many. The reason is nobody has edited any into th article, El Rojo 04:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
There is also a street after Marcus Garvey in New Haven, Enugu State in Nigeria.
I have added info about his early life leading to the founding of the UNIA...he also was married twice with two sons by his second wife...--Da Stressor 06:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Memorials to Marcus Garvey
[edit] Medals & Awards
Does anyone know what are all those medals and accoutremount Garvey wears are?
