Talk:Marija Gimbutas

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Marija Gimbutas is within the scope of WikiProject Lithuania, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Lithuania on Wikipedia. To participate simply edit the article or see our to-do list. On the project page we have some tools to help you out. Don't hesitate to ask questions!
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
Comments	----Lokyz 09:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Will someone please look at this. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this is plagiarized from somewhere. This is not Helga's English. It reads more like the blurb on a book. Danny

This is a very biased article, it hardly touches on the fact that the vast majority of classical scholars dismiss her work almost entirely. Someone reading this would think that she was a respected scholar, whereas she is considered with something close to ridicule in most academic circles. Can someone present the other side of the argument and clean up this article? Fairywings 14:55, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. This article needs major work. The Jade Knight 06:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and it also says nothing. What does "a different way of life of possible" mean? Danny

Contents 1 "Trying for some NPOV here"= 2 correct title ? 3 Andrew Fleming 4 debuking of debuking

[edit] "Trying for some NPOV here"=

That's the title User:DreamGuy gives to the following edit:

Gimbutas' theories are supported by a number of auhtors in the Neopagan movement, although her conclusions are generally considered highly speculative and unsupported at this time by most scholars.

Does this sound like neutrality? Why not actually quote some critics of Gimbutas? --Wetman 03:46, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds like neutrality... It's the showing two sides of the issue, instead of just all these great things somebody thought up about Gimbutas about how she was revolutionary and loved by everyone, which is NPOV and untrue. It's certainly a lot better than not mentioning it at all in the entire article. Yes, quoting critics of Gimbutas would be even better, and so would rewriting a lot of the rest of it, but this is definitely a step in the right direction. Otherwise it's an entire article written solely from a Gimbutas supporter's viewpoint. DreamGuy 04:47, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Who would those of you who have read anything by Gimbutas say is Gimbutas' most creditable critic, and what is the basis of his criticism? This is the kind of material that more properly belongs in the entry. --Wetman 05:56, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This same User is back, after an enforced Time Out, inserting his unsupported personal opinion in phrases like "her final book The Civilization of the Goddess (1991), which presented an overview of her speculations about Neolithic cultures," and "Bronze Age Indo-European patriarchal cultural elements, which she claimed fused to form the classical European societies". In a context of the article Marija Gimbutas, which already specifies these are Gimbutas' views, this is a disservice to the reader, quite as unnecessary as inserting "the alleged Resurrection" into articles on theology. Some quotes from specific ctitics would be useful, but User:DreamGuy has never actually read any of them. --Wetman 00:31, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There was no "enforced Time Out" of any sort, and your attempts to bad mouth me everytime I make a correction to an article you contributed to are getting very tired. It is by no means an unsupported personal opinion to point out that her claims of there being a Great Goddess are claims and speculation and not fact. You may have decided she was right, but the archeological community has not. She has theories, and not very well supported ones. Trying to remove language that clarifies that fact is highly biased. The only reason you find them unnecessary is because you disagree with them. And your claims that I have not read books on the topic is yet another in a long series of things you've invented up in your head to give yourself an excuse for disliking someone who is just improving articles you'd rather have stay written the way you made them. DreamGuy 16:24, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

(No problem with this person nor with most of his edits, actually. Pushing a second-hand revisionist-groupie personal point-of-view as "the archaeological community" is unhelpful, even if I were to do it. Absolutely nothing personal. Quotes from Gimbutas might encourage us to think DreamGuy has read her. Her over-the-top statements could easily be taken out of context to discredit her, far more effectively. "She has theories, and not very well supported ones" is fatuous, in the standard meaning of the word. Non one can blame us for wondering what's really up with this? --Wetman 21:06, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC) )

what's wrong with this? I have read stuff by Gimbutas, and by critics, and I think it sums it up nicely. She made important contributions, and, later in life, she clearly went for fringy feminist speculation. We should not let that cast a shadow on her "serious" work, but it is undeniable that much of her later work is less than "generally accepted". dab (ᛏ) 09:41, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] correct title ?

The first reference,

• Gimbutas, Marija 1946. Die Bestättung in Litauen in der vorgeschichtlichen Zeit. Tübingen: In Kommission bei J.C.B. Mohr.

seems somehow buggy to me ("Bestättung" does not exist in German AFAIK). Is somebody sure about this orthography ?

PS: after a quick google, I decided to fix it. — MFH:Talk 23:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Andrew Fleming

I have added a quote taken directly from Andrew Fleming's cited article. In my view, this quote indicates that he has a viewpoint that should be regarded with suspicion. I have also pointed out that Fleming's paper (and, I think Ucko's also, but I have not checked this, so have not referred to him) is not directed at Gimbutas's work. Daniel1Cohen 21:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how Fleming's view belongs here at all, as it is not directed at Marija's work. It should be deleted from here and moved to a generic article about intepreting Neolitic art. I'm deleting and putting them here in case anyone wants them. Evertype 10:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

"Andrew Fleming [1], "The Myth of the Mother Goddess," (World Archaeology 1969) denied that Neolithic spirals, circles, and dots were symbols for eyes; that eyes, faces, and genderless figures were symbols of a female; or that certain of Gimbutas' female figures were symbols of a goddess or goddesses; he described some of the figurines as "cheerful local pornography". His critique, while undoubtedly relevant to Gimbutas's work, is directed at an earlier generation of archaeologists and relates to a different area of Europe."

Myself, I think the reference to Fleming should remain, as it illustrates the difficulty of any interpretation. Daniel1Cohen 13:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Marija has her critics. It's fair to cite them. Fleming isn't criticizing her, but something more generic. Evertype 14:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] debuking of debuking

• the cultures of Old Europe built fortified sites that indicate the presence of warfare.

Tacitus Germania ~"they dwel apart when they chose". Bu this is very late observation. Where are the forts from 7 kya? Nasz 09:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)