Talk:Martin Gilbert

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There should be at least a reference to this guy's propaganda activities. It's pretty clear he is not what the article seems to imply: a disinterested party to present-day events. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.

Pazouzou 18:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

Reverted the critial comments added by last author to the book-list; I don't have any strong views one way or the other about Gilbert's writing but I think if that sort of thing is to be added it ought to be somewhere other than in an otherwise nondescript list of published works. It's a fairly major work, so one could quite possible make a section for it (and Eugene Rasor's review) to include the same viewpoints. If possible, a consensus view by Churchill historians would be best imo. At any rate, no offence in the revert, I hope.

--142.177.154.106 21:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

Sir Martin Gilbert is one of the most influential and acclaimed modern historians, much more famous than the barely notable Joel Beinin. Adding this marginal criticism in the absence of other views on his works is a violation of WP:NPOV. Beit Or 08:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Joel Beinin is notable enough to criticize him. And these are all your definitions. --Aminz 09:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No, these are facts. Please stop POVing the article. Beit Or 10:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I am NPOVing the article by adding a criticism from a reliable source. Gilbert is not infallible. --Aminz 10:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

You've POVed this article necause you have presented only one and pretty marginal POV without presenting others. Adding a POV tag after making POV edits won't help. Beit Or 13:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The POV tag is there for that. Please don't remove well-sourced material. --Aminz 23:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Beit Or is right. This is undue weight. Arrow740 03:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If the criticism is well-sourced and relevant, it belings in the article. V-Man737 05:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It is sourced to Joel Beinin, professor of Middle East History at Stanford University and the Director of the Middle East Studies Department at the American University in Cairo.--Aminz 05:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It provides undue weight to a fringe view. Arrow740 05:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

How do you know it is a fringe view? --Aminz 05:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That guy adopts a nasty, unscholarly tone. If he is the only one espousing his invective then it is a fringe view. Arrow740 05:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

A propaganda tract is criticizable. It is not unscholarly since it is peer-reviewed and published by "University of California Press". --Aminz 05:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It is the tone that is unscholarly. It reflects poorly on the author. He provides no specifics regarding Bat Ye'or, as far as I can tell. It may well be the same with Gilbert. Arrow740 05:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia can not censor criticisms. The critic is an scholar and has published his book in a notable academic press. That would be an adequate criticism. --Aminz 05:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

unindent) Is this Joel Beinin fellow a reliable source, or is his work biased in any way? Keep in mind that one can criticize without being biased; there is a difference between noting disagreements and throwing insults. Also, is Beinin the only critic? V-Man737 05:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

No, of course not. He is professor of Middle East History at Stanford University and the Director of the Middle East Studies Department at the American University in Cairo. His book is published through a reputable press: "University of California Press" --Aminz 05:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Find one or two more notable authors or publishers who agree with or support Beinin's view, and cite them along with Beinin, and you'll be able to put the criticism (in an NPOV tone, of course) into the article. Be sure to say "According to Joel Beinin, Gilbert wears pink shoes" rather than simply "Gilbert wears pink shoes." V-Man737 05:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with inclusion of other reviews. But this review should not be censored. --Aminz 05:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

We can put up POV tag showing the need for good reviews. That would work? --Aminz 05:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

(EC)I agree, as Wikipedia is not censored. Just make sure not to copy the review word for word, and to note that whichever author you are discussing (as opposed to Wikipedia) is the one who feels a certain way. V-Man737 05:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC) The POV tag is an invitation to other editors to come in and get rid of the POV material; they will come here and realize that the article is talking about a POV source, rather than using it as factual material. I wouldn't worry about it. V-Man737 05:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The review is actually a short comment Beinin makes in his book. Please take a look at it. [1]. Thanks --Aminz 06:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That's it?? I wouldn't feel attacked by those remarks, it seems more like an analysis of the text than an attack on Gilbert. It's perfectly referenced and concise (i.e., it doesn't pile it on). I'm putting it in, but some time in the near future we'll need to balance it out with a positive review. V-Man737 06:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It's unacceptable to find just one view that a certain editor likes and insert it into the article. Wikipedia must reflect teh full range of opinions on Gilbert's work without giving undue weight to any view. The recent addition of criticism is in blatant violation of WP:NPOV. Beit Or 13:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Ofcourse that's true Beit Or. But are there other views than that minz is trying to insert? If there are, feel free to post them. But so far you have NOT showed that there are any other scholarly views that exist.Bless sins 20:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If you have other reviews of his book, feelfree to add. --Aminz 21:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

<Unindent> Wikipedia must reflect teh full range of opinions on Gilbert's work without giving undue weight to any view. Beit Or, you are totally correct. Without the level criticism, this article would indeed seem to be a mere advertisement for Gilbert, rather than an encyclopedic article stating things about the world around him (including the fact that some people don't hold his books in very high regard). The only way the material would violate WP:NPOV is if it were to use the sources as Wikipedia's view, rather than explaining that it is the view of a critic. You may see this applied in any controversial article. V-Man737 01:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a biography of a living person. As such, it needs to be balanced. The article says nothing about any Gilbert's 40 or so books, except to excoriate one specific work. That might be reasonable on some other article, but on a WP:BLP article if you can't find balance, you don't put in anything at all. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

No! Wikipedia is not censored. WP:BLP has nothing to do with removal of valid criticisms. See John Esposito's page. There is a criticism section there. Should we remove it as well? I would say no. --Aminz 22:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content: "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one." Your addition of criticism on one book without adding other views on this celebrated scholar and the official biographer of Winston Churchill has skewed the article towards criticism. It doesn't help your case that the criticism was added after being stumbled upon in GoogleBooks. Beit Or 23:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove valid criticism. We have not give a disproportionate amount of space to critics: Just a small section and a small quote. --Aminz 23:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Probably the solution here would be to go find supportive criticism for Gilbert's books, to "balance it out." If it doesn't exist, there's no reason to clamor for it. The fact remains that the negative criticism does exist, and as such merits mention. If there is positive commentary on Gilbert's work, put it in the article! V-Man737 01:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Beit Or's reference to BLP is very instructive. I'm looking at Beinin's book now and it takes a very shrill tone. I doubt his views are shared. Arrow740 04:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I second V-Man737. There probably is no other crticism of Gilbert. If there is, then present it (or rather just insert it in the article). Bless sins 18:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content: "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one." WP:BLPis a very, very serious policy, and if people don't start paying attention to it they're going to get blocked. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Who said anything about a minority view? A book published by University of California Press, is not a "minority" opinion.

So far you have failed to show that any other criticism even exists.Bless sins 01:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

All we know here is that scholar X criticizes a particular work of scholar Y. We don't know anything more. We don't know what the majority of scholars think on this matter. Jayjg, do you have a reliable source saying the criticism is a negligible one? --Aminz 02:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This has been explained before. Gilbert is a celebrated historian who has written dozens of works, including the seminal work on Churchill. To have the only evaluation of that work be a rather shrill denunciation of one specific work is a violation of WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content: "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one." I'm not going to explain it again, and I'm not going to put up with any WP:BLP violating nonsense. If you don't know enough about Gilbert to know that he is indeed a world-renowned and celebrated historian, but rather have learned everything you know by googling for any dirt you could find, then don't edit this article. I am dead serious about this. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

He seems to be specialized for his works on Churchill. The work we are criticizing is his work on Jewish-Arab history. That's a different story. You say he is a celebrated scholar, well explain that in the article. You say he is the "Greatest scholar ever appeared in the world", well add that to the article. All these don’t make him infallible. He is by no means sacred. He is not "God". You either have reliable sources showing his competence --> in which case you can add them to the article and bring neutrality back OR you don't have any source --> I don't accept that he is super great. --Aminz 02:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Note that you didn't address Jayzg's points. Arrow740 02:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I think I did. What point didn't I address? --Aminz 02:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

No, you didn't. Your arguments boil down to the assertion that Gilbert must have been criticized by someone. Maybe so, but the article should reflect the entire spectrum of opinions about his works, especially the most notable ones, not just criticism of a rather minor book. Beit Or 14:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"I am dead serious about this." You think we are joking?

Again, Beit Or and Jayjg, please show that there exist other criticisms of Martin Gilbert. SO far none of you have shown that. Forget the term "Majority", this is the only criticism we have.Bless sins 16:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Your question is not relevant. The article must fairly represent Gilbert according to WP:BLP; adding one querulous criticism of a none-too-important work of his doesn't count, and neither I nor anyone else has to "show" that "there exist other criticisms of Martin Gilbert". In fact, if there is only one criticism of his entire oeuvre anywhere in the world, then one would have to assume that such views are extreme minority views. Either way it doesn't belong. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You are forgetting that the criticism was publsihed by "University of California Press" and the critic is professor at Stanford University and the Director of the Middle East Studies Department at the American University in Cairo. This is what WP:BLP says about criticism:

• The views of critics should (as opposed to shouldn't) be represented, if

1. their views are relevant to the subject's notability
2. are based on reliable sources,
3. the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article
4. [the criticism doesn't] appear to side with the critics' material.

Justifications.

1. Very relevent, as it is about the author's academics, for which he is noted, not about his personal/political/religious life etc. The author is partially known for his works on "Holocaust and Jewish history". The critic is also quite notable.

2. As I've demonstrated above the sources are very reliable.

3. Clear from this. If you want, I can give you the % space occupied by the criticism section.

4. It doesn't. We merely quote Beinin, attribute criticism to him, and not state anything as fact (except that Beinin has said what what we claim he said).

Please do respond.Bless sins 05:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't forget who it was published by. However, that is still not relevant to the fact that it appears to be an extreme minority opinion, and that it obviously violates WP:BLP, as explained. Please avoid straw man arguments, and keep in mind that I won't be repeating myself on this, it has been explained too many times already. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, WP:BLP, the policy you claim to be upholding, outlines 4 conditions to put in criticism. I am demonstrating that we have met all 4 conditions, and thus the criticism "should be represented". Not doing so would violate WP:BLP.

How are resepected and scholarly universities and their presses considered "extreme minority"?

BLP says (like you quoted) "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics". No one is doing that. The space we are giving is indeed very small relative to the rest of the article. You can verify that here.

Jayjg, I think you are misusing BLP and NPOV, by picking a part of the policy, while ignoring the rest. For NPOV, please also take a look this.Bless sins 16:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Concensus has been achieved here. Arrow740 19:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content: "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one." Where are the many positive reviews of his major works? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

That's what you can add (since you seem to know for sure that there are positive reviews, you must know where they are too). Also note that BLP says criticism "should be represented". Not doing so would violate WP:BLP, which is not a good thing. Bless sins 03:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Until there is a sufficient amount of positive material already in the article, WP:BLP forbids adding only critical material. In addition, "if the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article". Jayjg ^(talk) 04:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"Tiny minority" has only to do with source itself, not with the state of wikipedia. If a source is extremist, it will remain extremist regardless of what a wikipedia article about it says. If Beinin (and University of California Press) are extremist/"tiny minority" sources, then they will remain so, regardless of what I do, or you do. Thus your argument that a "tiny minority" opinion can ever be included in an article is flawed. However, Beinin is not an extremist or "tiny minority".

Again, I'll repeat: not adding the criticism violates NPOV (as it gives a completely rosy view of Gilbert), and WP:BLP (The views of critics should be represented if..., I have shown that the "if" is satisfied above).Bless sins 04:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Beinin is Beinin, he is not "The University of California press". "Tiny minority" is "tiny minority", not necessarily "extremist". WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content: "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one." Nothing gets around that. Don't bother posting any more here until you deal with that issue. Not one word, it won't help. BLP is clear, you must deal with that issue before anything else. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Beinin's work was published by the Unviersity of California Press. It is unlikely that the press would publish the work of a tiny minority. Again I'll repeat: your arguments doesn't hold. I am not representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. I am not saying that Benin's views are those that belong to the majority. I am attributing Beinin's views to Beinin and Beinin only. Also, WP:BLP and WP:NPOV will be violated if we don't add the criticism.Bless sins 13:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"It is unlikely that the press would publish the work of a tiny minority." That's your personal view, unsupported by any sources. Beit Or 18:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Presses don't publish material that they strongly disagree with. If a press has published something it suggests that the press is totally OK with the material. ALso, University presses don't publish trivial material. Thus if a press published something, it mean that the press regards it as scholarly. This is a general view.Bless sins 17:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Beinin's work, which crticizes Gilbert, was considered "The best sort of historical revisionism..." by James P. Jankowski. Jankowski has (co-)authored many works publsihed by prestigious press such Oxford University Press[2] and Cambridge Unviersity Press[3]. What I mean to show is that there are scholars out there who support Beinin's opinions, and he's not alone in his claims. Also, check this website for more (positive) reviews of Beinin's work in question. [4] I hope you are convinced that Beinin's work isn't "tiny minority".Bless sins 14:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The question is not about Beilin's work per se, but the importance of Beilin's views on that particular book by Gilbert in the context of this article. Also, the phrase "historical revisionism" is usually used disparagingly. Beit Or 18:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

If it is neither Beinin, nor his work that you're discrediting, how exactly are judging the "importance" of his statements?Bless sins 17:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I try to find some positive things about Gilbert and Esposito. Meanwhile, I'll remove the criticisms from both articles. --Aminz 02:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Please mind WP:POINT. Beit Or 07:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Aminz should mind WP:POINT, but atleast you and Jayjg won't be the ones objecting.Bless sins 17:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Outside comment from RFC

Sir Martin Gilbert is principally known for his contribution to the biography of Winston Churchill although he has written many other books. In my view, including a section on criticism which includes an extensive quote relating to a fairly obscure book must fail the "undue prominence" part of NPOV, unless and until a much larger section is written which discusses the critical reaction to a much wider area of his writing. It's important to remember that just as film critics don't only make negative judgments about films, a section on criticism should include critical commentary which praises as well as that which condemns. Sam Blacketer 11:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The burning question is: is there more criticism of Gilbert, than what has already been presented? So far, no one has shown that. And if this is the only major criticism, then this is not a minority view at all. Bless sins 18:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I just did a search of the New York Times book reviews and found several reviews. Sam Blacketer 18:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Excellent, now let's put them in, although I haven't looked at the link above.Bless sins 22:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Bless sins. Also, Sam, can you please have a look at John Esposito talk page and give your opinion on the criticism section there. Thanks --Aminz 23:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The question as I understand it is how much relevance the particular work has to an article on Martin Gilbert. If the work is unimportant to his career then it may be that any discussion of it--positive, negative, or neutral--would only clutter the article. -- Alan McBeth 20:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)