Talk:Mary Wollstonecraft

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	Mary Wollstonecraft is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 20, 2007.
Article Milestones Date Process Result December 2, 2006 Good article nominee Listed December 29, 2006 Peer review Reviewed January 20, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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Archives Archive 1 – covering discussions from 2004 – Nov 2006, including plagiarism problems with the first two versions of the article and discussion of the intro Archive 2 – covering discussions from Nov 2006 – Feb 2007, including peer reviews and nomination for FA Archive 3 - covering discussions from February 2007 - March 2007, including the dialect of the page and MW's views on abortion

Contents 1 Quotations 2 The lead 3 lead changes 4 The lead (again)

[edit] Quotations

Please do not change the spelling or punctuation of a quotation unless you have checked the source and found the quotation here to be in error. Thank you. Awadewit 03:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The lead

Anonymous IP editor who has been editing the lead, please do not remove information from the lead claiming that it is factually incorrect unless you can prove that it is so.

Don't think I did.162.83.134.173

In one of your edit summaries, you characterized your removal of a sentence as "false statement." It was not a false statement; Wollstonecraft did write in multiple genres. Awadewit 00:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mary_Wollstonecraft&diff=120388865&oldid=120388585 as to what I was referring to.162.83.134.173

If you are referring to the internal comment about changing "British" to "English," that was because of a minor revert war that we were having and a long discussion on the talk page over the dialect of the page and whether MW should be classified as British or English (the issues seemed to get tied up together). Editors simply kept changing the page multiple times without discussing the issue, not realizing that we were in the middle of discussing it or had finished discussing it. You can read the discussions in the archives. The reason we had to revert to "shouting" with caps and mentioning vandalism is because editors would revert even though the internal comment said to discuss the change on the talk page first. I don't think it is a good idea to remove comments like that unless one knows the history of a page. There are often reasons for them. For example, we finally had to put a link in for "apposition" to wikitionary because so many editors kept changing it to "opposition," because they thought "apposition" wasn't a word. The internal comment warning them that "apposition" was indeed a word failed to convince them. Awadewit 01:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Unlike some pages on wikipedia, this page has been meticulously researched.

A++!162.83.134.173

Also, please do not alter the meaning of sentences in the lead (or elsewhere) unless you are prepared to back up your statements. For example, the lead originally stated that Wollstonecraft wrote in several different genres; she did, in fact, do this. The list of her works is provided at the bottom of the page and any biography will confirm this (I will use Todd as my source - it is in the bibliography of this article).

Never said she didn't. What I did said: "only notable works should be mentioned; many writers prose various works.." When I first read the intro, yesterday, I failed to see the reason "treatises, a travel narrative, a history of the French Revolution, a conduct book, and a children's book" are of any importance; she is "known for A Vindication of the Rights of Woman" and that piece of work is precisely what lead me to read about her. I ask "Why would a typical person want to know such frivolous works as a conduct book or a children's book?" ...nor does it need to be kept as there is a list of at the bottom.162.83.134.173

These works were not "frivolous" to Wollstonecraft. A Vindication of the Rights of Men was the first response to Burke and in a discussion with works like Thomas Paine's Rights of Man. Her Female Speaker, Thoughts on the Education of Daughters and Original Stories were part of a concerted effort to write about the issues surrounding women and education (a key concern of the Vindication of the Rights of Woman). Her history of the French Revolution, which she was so dedicated to writing that she collected information at great risk to herself in France, she insisted on writing while pregnant and just after the birth of her first child. Must I go on? It is interesting that you didn't include her novels in this list. Just because the novel form is more familiar to modern audiences does not make it more important to eighteenth-century audiences or to Wollstonecraft. Also, the lead is trying to provide general information in a short space. I do not feel that listing Wollstonecraft's works in other genres is "frivolous" since she is known for being a writer. Awadewit 00:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Good points. I'll put in the body.162.83.134.173

Also the lead previously stated that Wollstoencraft's life story was more important than her works to the feminist movement. You changed the statement to "as important as." According to Cora Kaplan's essay in The Cambridge Companion to Wollstonecraft, cited in the article and in the bibliography, this is not the case.

Untrue. The intro originally said "Wollstonecraft's life has often received as much, if not more, interest than her writing," which implies "as much and maybe more; we don't know."

Based on Kaplan's essay, there should be more certainty to the iffy statement. This part should be rewritten.162.83.134.173

Based on that essay, I am not prepared to insert a statement of that level of certainty, that is why I wrote it with the "if." Literary scholarship is rarely that certain. Awadewit 00:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

If you have other information, please provide it, otherwise please leave the information that is sourced to the scholarly works on Wollstonecraft intact. Finally, as Kaldari already pointed out to you in her edit summaries, using the second definition of a word is perfectly legitimate; and to say that Wollstonecraft "presaged" the feminist movement is far more accurate than to say that she was a part of it (as you did).

Well she was.. part. of. it. (See below)162.83.134.173

There was no feminist movement when she was alive.Awadewit 03:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movement#History, "The feminist movement reaches far back before the 18th century," and my interpretation of this is that the feminist movement includes her works, which was written when she was alive.162.83.134.173

It is too bad that that page does not cite its sources, but if you want to use that page as a reference, it is best to read the entire page. Note that it says The movement is generally said to have begun in the 19th century as people increasingly adopted the perception that women are oppressed in a male-centred society (see patriarchy). The feminist movement is rooted in the West and especially in the reform movement of the 19th century. The organized movement is dated from the first Women's Rights Convention at Seneca Falls, New York, in 1848. John Stuart Mill, with the influence of his wife Harriet Taylor, made a considerable contribution with his work The Subjection of Women, in the mid-19th Century. I would be curious what scholarship you have to back up your contention that Wollstonecraft was part of the feminist movement. The scholarship that I have read on Wollstonecraft (some of which I quoted for this page and which I listed in the bibliography) either refers to her as a protofeminist or as a grandmother of feminism (if it refers to her as a feminist at all - please see the "feminism" section of the article); I haven't read anything saying she was part of a feminist movement. Please let me know what scholars you are reading. Thanks. Awadewit 00:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lead changes

Several changes have been made to the article lead (diff). Some of these changes are grammatically questionable and some of them change the meaning of the sentences to various degrees. Anyone want to discuss them? Here are the obvious grammatical problems:

• "After two misfortune affairs..." - Unfortunate affairs would be the grammatically correct syntax, although I still prefer "ill-fated affairs" myself, as it implies an unhappy ending, rather than just unhappiness in general. Thoughts?

• Makes no sense with "misfortune" (a noun, not an adjective). I have already replaced it with "ill-fated" again. "Unfortunate" is not the right word, I agree. I'm willing to entertain other options. Awadewit 04:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a noun. Careless mistake on my part.

Ill-fated really doesn't "implies an unhappy ending." Some definitions:

• Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition: "ending in or doomed to disaster"
• Compact Oxford English Dictionary: "destined to fail or have bad luck."
• Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 10th Edition: "1) having or destined to a hapless fate; 2) that causes or marks the beginning of misfortune."
• Cambridge International Dictionary of English: "unlucky and unsuccessful, often resulting in death"
• The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: "1) Destined for misfortune; doomed; 2) Marked by or causing misfortune; unlucky."
• Infoplease Dictionary: "1) destined, as though by fate, to an unhappy or unfortunate end: an ill-fated voyage; 2) bringing bad fortune."

Unfortunate is the synonym suggested by the dictionaries.

I honestly cannot begin to vouch for this description. If it causes "misfortune; unlucky" or brings "bad fortune," and is not cause by destiny or fate, I would simply use "unfortunate," in my humble opinion.162.83.134.173

Rather than trying to find a synonym, which is fruitless since you disagree with the premise of the word, why don't you read the article and then try to characterize Wollstonecraft's relationships in one word rather than listing all of these definitions. What do you think unites Wollstonecraft's unhappy affairs? What word or phrase encapsulates that? Awadewit 00:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

• "Her early advocacy for women's equality, critiques on conventional femininity and the degradation of women is part of the feminist movement." - We're missing an "and" here and the verb and subject don't agree (subject is plural). Also we lose a lot of the meaning of the sentence by just saying they were "part of" the feminist movement. What we're trying to explain here is how Wollstonecraft's writing was a precursor to the feminist movement, i.e. it predated the movement,

I like that! Predated and precursor are great words as it is objective, fairly neutral, lacking the bias and possibly hype of mythological "presaged."162.83.134.173

but was something of an omen of things to come. I think the term "presaged" was fine, personally. Really, the ideal word to use there would be "portended" but it's something of an awkward word that no not everyone is familiar with.

I don't believe in foreshadowing and omens and witchcraft and ghosts. Sorry, I believe in SCIENCE and REASON and LOGIC and Real life. Sorry.162.83.134.173

I accept science and always attempt to follow the dictates of logic and reason, but "presage" is not always associated with witchcraft. According to definition 1b. in the Oxford English Dictionary, "presage" means "To be indicative or suggestive of; to be a natural precursor of, to give warning of." In the online version, they have several quotations to illustrate this meaning. I thought you would appreciate this one from 1816: "The rising of the mercury presages, in general, fair weather." Here is a more recent one (2005): "The harrowing constitutional process that was rapidly turning into a debacle that could have presaged a civil war." I don't think that there is anything unusual about how we are using this word. Ironically, the first definition the OED gives for "portend" is "to presage as an omen; to foretell by supernatural means" and the 1b. definition is "in weakened sense: to indicate beforehand; to give warning of." Awadewit 00:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Kaldari 03:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• I have already changed this sentence as well (see previous post) since there was no feminist movement during the late eighteenth century. Actually, I believe the subject is "advocacy" right now, so the verb should be singular in this instance. If you add the "and" (Her early advocacy . . . and critiques . . . are), then it becomes plural. Again, I also like "presaged" and have reinserted it along with fixing the preposition. I agree with the meaning you want to convey. Fix away. This lead was just butchered. Awadewit 04:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Differing in thought is call "butchered." How wonderful...162.83.134.173

Hardly just a difference in thought. You introduced grammatical errors and information that is not supported by Wollstonecraft scholarship. Awadewit 00:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

• I added the "and" back so that the sentence at least makes sense grammatically. I'm still not sure about the substitution of "critiques" for "attacks" though. Does it really make sense to say she "critiqued" the degradation of women? Kaldari 05:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

No it doesn't. I think it makes sense to say she "critiqued" conventional femininity but not the degradation of women. Previously, I believe we had "attacks" because it works for both. We could say, "critiques conventional femininity" and "attacks the degradation of women," though. But what do you think of "Her early advocacy for women's equality and her critique of conventional femininity anticipate/presage the later feminist's movement's stark claims regarding the degradation of women." That way we suggest what in the feminist movement she is anticipating. Awadewit 15:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Seems a bit wordy to me, and perhaps overly specific. I suppose mentioning both women's equality and the degradation of women is somewhat redundant anyway. What if we just changed it to: "Her early advocacy for women's equality and her critiques of conventional femininity presaged the later emergence of the feminist movement."? Kaldari 20:05, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

How about "presaged the claims of the feminist movement"? I never really liked the "degradation of women" phrase anyway - it's such a cliche. Awadewit 20:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I hate to use the term, but Awadewit is right, you are butchering the lead. Most of your edits so far have not been very helpful. For example, the edits you just made to the last paragraph of the lead have several problems: 1. the feminist movement is not "approaching", 2. "[fill in blank]" is absolutely not acceptable and bordering on vandalism, 3. The activists are mentioned in the article, they dont need to be listed in the lead. The lead is supposed to be a summary of information presented in the article.

Why are you so intent on rewriting content that is already well written, has been reviewed and re-edited numerous times already, and is meticulouly researched? You would probably recieve a better reception if you suggested your changes on the talk page before editing the article. Just a suggestion. Kaldari 05:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The lead (again)

162.83.134.173, please stop editing the lead (I have a feeling you are the same person as 141.155.154.172) until you fully understand wikipedia's policies. You are introducting grammatical errors all over the lead:

• "primely" (not a word)
• "Her other major works includes Original Stories from Real Life (1788), Mary: A Fiction (1788), Vindication of the Rights of Men (1790), and deeply personal travel narratives."
• "Her early advocacy for women's equality, critique on conventional femininity, and opposition against the mistreatments of women is indicative of the approaching feminist movement."

You are introducting quotations without citations:

• "Wollstonecraft has been labeled the "grandmother of feminism."" The fact that I mentioned this on the talk page is not enough. You must find it in a book yourself if you want to include it.

You are leaving out information. Please note that this is a Featured article; that means that it has passed a somewhat rigorous set of peer reviews and represents the best wikipedia has to offer. It should therefore not be left in a draft state by editors. If you want to add this information, find it!

• "Feminist scholars and activists such as [fill in blank] have cited both her philosophical ideas and her personal life as important influences on their work."

You have also added a somewhat subjective statement; you said Wollstonecraft's affairs were "failed." We actually already rejected that word months ago because it is hard to prove that she thought they had failed. In fact, some scholars might argue Wollstonecraft got a lot out of her relationship with Imlay. Awadewit 05:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)