Talk:Master (Doctor Who)

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Contents 1 Appearances 1.1 Appearances 1.1.1 in the series 1.1.2 elsewhere 2 DWM comic Master 3 EDAs 4 Reconciling spin-off appearances 5 Were they really brothers? 6 "line cut from Bullet Time" 7 Accent 8 War Chief/Monk theories 9 Article title 10 Hypnotic ability 11 Real name 12 Noxal surrender 13 Bilis Manger 14 New series

[edit] Appearances

couldnt the appearances be listed in cronological order starting with delgados first appearcne ect.

Chronology is tricky, because where do we fit Dust Breeding, etc.? -khaosworks 22:12, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I suggest having two separate lists: one for appearances in the series, in chronological order; and one for other appearances (audio plays, parodies, etc.), perhaps in publication order. --Paul A 07:47, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hm. Interesting idea, but then how do we distinguish between actors without it look too unwieldy? Can you do a draft so we can get an idea of what it would look like? --khaosworks 09:22, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

On reflection, I was really planning to leave the second list in "appearance order by actor". This is what I had in mind:

[edit] Appearances

[edit] in the series

• By Roger Delgado
  • Terror of the Autons
  • The Mind of Evil
  • The Claws of Axos
  • Colony in Space
  • The Dæmons
  • The Sea Devils
  • The Time Monster
  • Frontier in Space
• By Peter Pratt
  • The Deadly Assassin
• By Geoffrey Beevers
  • The Keeper of Traken
• By Anthony Ainley
  • The Keeper of Traken - briefly, at the end
  • Logopolis
  • Castrovalva
  • Time-Flight
  • The King's Demons
  • The Five Doctors
  • Planet of Fire
  • The Caves of Androzani - briefly during regeneration scene
  • The Mark of the Rani
  • The Trial of a Time Lord
  • Survival
• By Gordon Tipple
  • Doctor Who television movie - briefly in prologue
• By Eric Roberts
  • Doctor Who television movie

[edit] elsewhere

• By Geoffrey Beevers
  • Dust Breeding (audio drama)
  • Master (audio drama)
• By Mark Gatiss
  • Sympathy for the Devil (audio drama)
• By Derek Jacobi
  • Scream of the Shalka (audio drama)
• By Jonathan Pryce
  • Doctor Who and the Curse of Fatal Death (Red Nose Day skit)

--Paul A 01:15, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Is the 'Portrayed By' section on the table just for TV appearances or should it include people like Mark Gatiss and Derek Jacobi?

Yes, just the television appearances - the others are in the "Other Appearances" section. This is the same for other pages. --khaosworks 19:31, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

what about people like Richard Hurndall for the Doctor, are they left out?

Good point - I would say off-hand yes, as Hurndall was really playing Hartnell playing the First Doctor. --khaosworks 14:03, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Should we really be counting The Caves of Androzani as an appearance of the Master? I'm not incredibly bothered if it's left in, but appearing as a vision in the Doctor's mind seems a bit thin to me. PaulHammond 19:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

It really doesn't take anything from it - we do note that it's only briefly at the end, and Ainley actually showed up on set to record that bit, it's not a clip from a previous episode. --khaosworks 19:12, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] DWM comic Master

Two points that we might want to add to the paragraph about the version of the Master seen in The Glorious Dead in DWM:

1. The new Master was seen in the background of a previous strip (although I can't remember which one) before his identity was revealed. He was in the guise of a street preacher prophesying doom.
2. This version of the Master was depicted as black-skinned. No Time Lord in the TV series was ever played by a black actor, although this almost certainly has more to do with BBC casting practices between 1965 and 1986 (the first and last castings of characters from the Doctor's planet) than with an intrisic racial quality of Gallifreyans.

I can't add the first because my DWM back issues are in storage right now, and I can't check them to see the comic strip Master's first appearance. I'm unsure about the best way to word the second in NPOV: I think it's noteworthy (for example, as a departure from the Eurocentric casting of the original TV series), but I think that going into too much detail would be off-topic for this article. Opinions? —Josiah Rowe 04:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[1] - apparently there was a black time lord in one of Cornell's novels. Interestingly Rassilon is portrayed by Don Warrington in some of the Big Finish audios. --TimPope 18:43, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I knew about Warrington's Rassilon, but had forgotten about the Cornell contribution. Of course, there's no reason whatsoever why a Time Lord shouldn't be black. But back to this article: anyone have a succinct way of mentioning this in the "Glorious Dead" paragraph, without getting too derailed? —Josiah Rowe 19:20, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that touching on it briefly (but obviously, keep the focus on the Master) and just saying "although no Black Time Lords were ever seen in the original series...." Okay, I don't know where to go from there, but it's a start. Also, the TVM Master was the first Time Lord to speak with an American accent, so evidently he is pretty cool with diversity. As long as they obey him, one supposes :) Sean 19:59, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Right, I've given it a shot, and probably erred on the side of too much information. Improvements are welcome. (By the way, I'm never quite sure when to write "black" and when to write "Black" — some people are very particular that it's got to be capitalized whenever you're talking about people, others say that the capitalization is a political relic from the 1970s. The Wikipedia article Black (people) is inconsistent.) —Josiah Rowe 21:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually that's really good. It's got just enough info to keep it relevant. Perhaps we should talk about this over at Talk: Time Lord ? Sean 21:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] EDAs

Khaosworks' addition of the Master's (possible) presence in The Gallifrey Chronicles has reminded me, wasn't there an EDA in which the amnesiac Doctor talked to this version on a screen in the depths of the TARDIS? At the time, REG was still being touted as the "official" Ninth Doctor, so this was presumably intended as an intermediate point between being trapped in the Eye and being trapped in an android body that couldn't leave the TARDIS.

Unfortunately, I can't remember which novel it was. Daibhid C 21:29 18 Oct 2005

Khaosworks recently changed several EDA appearances from "cameo only" to "possible cameo only". While I don't disagree with the change, it should probably be pointed out that Lance Parkin has confirmed in the newly released Ahistory that he, at least, indended the appearance in The Gallifrey Chronicles to be the Master. (I also think I read somewhere that Lawrence Miles and/or Justin Richards confirming that the "Man with the Rosette" was indended to be the Master, but I can't confirm that.) Of course, this raises questions of authorial intent and how important it is in the interpretation of a text, but that's beyond our scope. :^) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reconciling spin-off appearances

I know that it's beyond our purview here to try to make sense of the somewhat contradictory versions of the Master's post-Survival history. But I was wondering if it would be appropriate to provide links to efforts by prominent fans/fan sites to do that. I'm thinking specifically of Outpost Gallifrey's Canon-Keeper's Guide, Paul Clarke's Discontinuity Guide and Dominique Boies' attempt at drwhoguide.com. Would it be appropriate to provide these links, either in the "Other appearances" section or in "External links"? Or is the entire matter too crufty even to mention? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Were they really brothers?

Evidence for and against...RodCrosby 02:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any evidence in favour at all, beyond the traditional desire of fans to explain things that don't need explaining :-) —Whouk (talk) 09:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "line cut from Bullet Time"

Re: the reference to a line "cut from Bullet Time," - I don't know that "cut" is the right word since that implies it was in the first draft manuscript- actually it was just something that I thought about while writing that book, maybe typed it in, then changed my mind after about thirty second's thought as it wasn't worth the bother. So, that line in the article on the Master probably ought to come out.

David A McIntee 23:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accent

"To date, he is the only Time Lord to speak with an American accent." Of course, Castellan Spandrell spoke with a Czech accent... is this notable? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps just, although the fact that he's inside Bruce at the time makes it less so. —Whouk (talk) 20:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] War Chief/Monk theories

I agree with Khaosworks' removal of the recent anon additions about the fan theories linking the Master to the Monk and/or the War Chief, but I do wonder if the use of the word "invalidate" in the footnote is a bit too strong. Although I personally don't see much value in the theories (I remember one fellow on OG who insisted on calling the War Chief the "Brayshaw Master"), if we say that the NAs invalidate the theories, aren't we coming down on the side of their canonicity? I'd have changed the note myself to something reflecting our usual "uncertain canonicity" line, but couldn't find a wording that seemed right. On the one hand, I don't feel like the theories need to be promoted here, but on the other we shouldn't look like we're making an editorial judgement in favor of the canonicity of the New Adventures. Thoughts? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I shall change one word. Voila. Fear my power. (Although Letterman is probably more powerful, since he does his changes with one letter) --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 23:34, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I loved Letterman when I was a kid! And had no idea until I followed the link you provided that the voices of Letterman and Spellbinder were Gene Wilder and Zero Mostel! Gee, Wikipedia is educational. :D —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:45, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, the joys of being raised by television. Learned so much from the Children's Television Workshop. Speaking of The Electric Company, there's a "Best of" DVD set out, in case you didn't know. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 08:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

If it has Morgan Freeman as Vincent the Vegetable Vampire, I'm there. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't guarantee that but I don't see how they could leave it out... and with that I bring finis to my half of the conversation. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

I supose this has been tackled elsewhere, but should the title be "The Master". GraemeLeggett 12:17, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It used to be, but it was moved here by consensus some time ago (same with The Rani, The Meddling Monk, The Doctor). This is due to Wikipedia naming conventions. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 12:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hypnotic ability

Shouldn't passing mention be given somewhere to The Master's ability to hypnotise people? Perhaps with the reproduction of his recurrent line: "I am The Master and you will obey me."

JH 20:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Real name

In the 5 doctors, the 3rd Dr recognises The Master and calls him by his real name, "Jehoshaphat" I think. This detail might be worthy of addition to the Master page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.45.11.155 (talk • contribs) 17:37, December 27, 2006 (UTC)

He's not calling him by his name — "Jumping Jehosaphat" or "Jumping Jehoshaphat" is a 19th century oath, apparently American in origin. See here for details. Nowt to do with the Master's name. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:49, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Noxal surrender

My understanding is that Romana offered The Master to the Daleks as a noxal surrender -in other words, she surrendered him to the Daleks in place of the original malefactor. This explanation was given in the 2006 Annual. Shouldn't it be noted in the "Life after Death" section? I still wish we knew more about the charges that were brought against him at the trial... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.59.196.27 (talk • contribs) 01:24, February 21, 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a likely interpretation of the "Act of Master Restitution", as mentioned in the 2006 Annual, but the story doesn't go into details, so we can't either. Since the Annual is a non-television source, it's mentioned in the "other appearances" section. (Even though that bit was written by Russell T. Davies, there are some folks who say "if it's not on TV, it's not canon". To satisfy Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, we always segregate TV and non-TV sources in Doctor Who articles.)

Currently the mention of the "Act of Master Restitution" is under "Comic strips", which isn't exactly accurate. Given its provenance as written by the series' current producer, maybe we should put it in its own section. Actually, I think I'll do that — if people disagree, we can talk it over. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like pretty wild speculation extrapolated from a single throwaway line, and has no place anywhere near Wikipedia. Angmering 09:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bilis Manger

I reverted the following addition:

Some fans believe the Torchwood character Bilis Manger is actually the Master due mostly to his time travel abilities and his foundness for a mysterious grandfather clock This theory was first mentioned in Doctor Who Magazine issue #379.

It's true that one "George from Luton" had a letter with this theory published in DWM 379 — actually, the letter as published merely notes a similarity. I think that the evidence is pretty weak ("I love humans, always seeing patterns in things that aren't there"), and a fan letter (even one published in DWM) is a pretty borderline source. But if the theory is widespread I'm willing to be convinced, or to go along with others if they think this is worth including. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New series

I read somewhere that the Master will be returning in the revival of the series as a spirit that takes possession of people's bodies after his demise in the classic series.

Anon