Talk:Math rock
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is part of the Alternative music WikiProject, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage of articles relating to Alternative rock. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page. |
| Start | This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. |
| Mid | This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the Project's importance scale. |
[edit] Older comments
I just found out about "Math Rock" today when I was playing my band, Planet 22, for a friend. After all these years I finaly know our genre. See for yourself: http://www.geocities.com/rjs121576/planet22.html
the times are: "Mr. Happy" : starts with 4/4 but starts dropping in measures of 10/4. The middle part is 6/8 and then back to 4/4. In part 2 the times go from 10/4 to 11/4 a few times followed by a middle part where the drums, keyboards, and sax play 11/4, while the bass(me) and guitar play 11/4 for a 110 beat polyrythym.
"Muffin jugs" : A funk song, the bridges have measures of 5/4 and 3/4 thrown in. The middle part is all 5/4 Check out the bass knob volume fade ins
"Mushrooms on the Wall pt. 2" : College age guys, our friend threw a mushroom from his pizza on the wall and it stayed stuck there for weeks, yuck! This song is based on the circle of fifths, starting in G#. The bridge or "B" part alternates between major and minor. The time slips in the third bridge followed by 5/4, and 3/4, resolving at the end to 4/4.
"Mushrooms on the wall pt. 1" : this one starts with 8 beats and subtracts a beat each measure. the "B" part is a Cmajor 6/8 theme I often use, it can be played against most music in C including Beethoven 9-4. The middle part of this song goes from 4/4 to 4/4>3/4>4/4>3/4 to 3/4 to 6/8 to 5/4
"Mushrooms on the wall pt. 3+4" : the first part are 20 beat cycles where every other 20 beats the instruaments alternate between 4 5/4's, 5 4/4's, or 6 3/4's+ 1 2/4 the final section starts in 4/4 where the guitar and bass remain, after a few turns the drums and sax start dropping beats, so each time through they are synchopated in a different way until on the 4th shift they are back in time with the bass and guitar. Check out the bass knob volume fade ins.
skip some other songs down to "take jack" for a good 5/4 jam
Take Care... Joe www.degicank.com
Why don't you call it Mathal - mathematic metal?
I don't see how anyone would consider "Q and Not U" math rock. That's like an insult to Don Caballero and Slint.
I'm not sure, but I've also heard people describe progressive rock and metal bands such as Rush and Tool to be "math rock"
[edit] Jethro Tull??
Did Jethro Tull use mixed meters? I don't know the group's music well but have never associated them (like I do Rush) with complex or changing meters. Whoever made this edit, can you explain which Jethro Tull song(s) feature this? Badagnani 05:49, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
-
- I didn't make that (or any edit on this page) but Jethro Tull definitely does some math rock. Check out Thick as a Brick. It is written as one continuous song (except for the break to flip the record) and uses tons of different time signatures. I'll leave it to everyone else as to whether this is truly "math rock" but I think it fits the minimum metric definition.12.30.156.36 19:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] multiple points
i'd just like to point out that the purpose of this article is to explain the style of the music that was developed by a group of musicians in the 90s and were tagged with such a label. as is the same for grunge, emo, punk, whatever. the article shouldnt be about all and any bands that just "sound mathy." people should stop adding their friends bands or their own bands to the lists.
about sleepytime gorilla muesum: they definitely do have technical tendencies, but were not really cited or noted as a band essential to the development of the "genre." i suppose it's place now is well suited.
as for jehu, sound samples on amazon arent really an accurate depiction of ones sound. math rock isnt always about changing meters all the time, its about taking an odd meter and working within that, or throwing in subtle rhythmic flares. jehu fused great songwriting, with the mathy aesthetic, hence why they get tagged as such all the time, but nonetheless, a great fucking band.
[edit] about q and not u
i believe there was a number of interviews around the time their second album came out that they stated they were "tired of the screamy/math rock thing" to some extent. many reviewers noted their first album to have a mathy aesthetic (mainly the dual guitar interplay) like the early 90s dischord bands such as hoover and circus lupus. q and not u is not math rock, but was influenced by essential dc bands that got tagged with the unfortunate genre brand.
[edit] Share the knowledge
I added an internal link to List of works in irregular time signatures in the "See also" section at the bottom. Many of the existing samples there are from classical composers and metal bands. This does not convey the wide variety of bands experimenting with odd meters. Come on math rockers! Share the knowledge!
[edit] your band
(this was also added to the list talk page) please stop adding it to lists and the page. and your friends' bands too. it's annoying, and is also cramming up the page with just shameful self-promotion. just because you have one song that has one part in 5/4 doesn't make your band math rock. try "progressive screamo" -dpatrick
- Please sign your posts. Thanks. Badagnani 02:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] correction needed
Polvo and Breadwinner aren't from the midwest; Polvo was from Chapel Hill (and really isn't math-rock) and Breadwinner was from Richmond, VA (and definitely is math-rock).
[edit] No Means No
I listened to every sample of No Means No on Amazon and found that, while the group's music is often highly syncopated, it was pretty much all in 4/4. Can the editor who added this group as a "secret influence" explain this further here? Badagnani 07:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Brazilian bands
I feel strongly that the Brazilian bands should not be included as "math rock" groups as the term is restricted to heavy, complex U.S. and Japanese bands of the 1990s, originating during that time. The earlier Brazilian bands would fall under the complex wing of "prog" (progressive) music, associated with the RIO (Rock in Opposition) movement which was not restricted to South America, but which also included Europe and Japan. Badagnani 04:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Emo
I don't think math rock derives from emo, because when math rock developed (mid-1990s) there was no such genre. Badagnani 23:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Philo Beddow
Philo Beddow is a real band. I think I've seen them, and I think they had some mathiness to them. Badagnani 20:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] DAve Brubeck
Should his band be listed as an influence. Rich Farmbrough 14:23 12 August 2006 (GMT).
- If an influence it's a distant one, and probably hasn't direcly affected most math rock musicians or bands except those with the widest listening habits. Brubeck drew on Turkish music for these "odd" meters but his style is much "smoother" than that of most math rock groups, whose aesthetic is very much the musical language of metal. Also, many math rock groups such as Craw utilize constantly changing meters, which isn't typical of Brubeck, who will typically, in the odd-meter tunes he's known for, select a meter of 5 and 7 and generally stay with it. That makes him more similar to some of the "progressive rock" groups that precede math rock. Badagnani 16:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] System Of A Down
I personally think System Of A Down should be math rock, because in their music, sometimes, its slow, sometimes its fast, and the tempo always changes with their music. Since they are hard to classify, I think Math Rock is the type of music SOAD plays.4.154.254.133 04:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
- Math rock involves changes in meter, not just tempo or beat. Math rock groups have as their paramount modus operandi the use of odd meters and changing meters. System of a Down, while having some "change-ups" in their music, can thus not be classified as a "math rock" group. Badagnani 04:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What kind of pretentious bullshit is this?
Math rock? Just wow. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.231.133.133 (talk • contribs).
[edit] Tool reference
The newly added Tool reference seems to make sense, although I still have to listen to the track. Although they're not primarily a math rock group they do have some songs that are in math rock style. Thus, this mention seems to be well placed. Badagnani 20:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I just listened to the song "The Grudge" on YouTube and it seems to be all in 10/4 with some 7/8 thrown in at the end. It definitely has a "math rock" sound, though with not as many meter changes as Craw or other math rock groups. Badagnani 22:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- The last couple Tool albums have a lot of unusual time signatures, but most Math Rock fans are indie rock snobs and would be very uncomfortable with your reference to such a mainstream band in this article. Math rock, unfortunately, is defined as much by a "scene" as it is by its musical qualities, and Tool is not part of that scene.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 01:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The others have weighed in, and there are other editors who think Tool is a math rock band. This belief (though one which I believe to be incorrect) seems to be widespread. The addition of the information that they have showed math rock influence in that song (though they are not considered a math rock band), thus, seems justified. Badagnani 01:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tool and others
I believe that Tool is correct but most Math Rock fans would not agree. It should be kept. What about Maps And Atlases who had a big Guitar Player Magazine print article? They're definitely one of the strongest candidates for current/contemporary Math Rock bands who are gaining acclaim for the category. MrLiberty 04:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Maps and Atlases? are you kidding? Fingertapping does not equal math rock, nor does some guitar player magazine. Anyone who can play Nintendo and has some musical ability/hand eye coordination could fingertap, especially in 4/4 as most of their music seems to be in. Their music is progressive emo at best, some wimpy/whiny indie stuff Pitchfork media would really be all about. "Math rock" , stylistically, isnt really about accessibility, whereas Maps and Atlases obviously are. Tool is not a "math rock" band in context of the genre and meeting most of the stylistic characterists. You must not forget the radio play, the NU METAL leanings, the kinship, etc. The rhythmic concept alone, that can obviously be seen as somewhat similar, but describing them in the same breath as a band like Breadwinner is really ridiculous. But the way it was written before, just in terms of rhythmic concepts, is okay by me. sphrrical 23:11 03 December 2006 (UTC)
-
- That's the thing: the use of the term (following Wittgenstein) has changed since the early 1990s, from the brutal, METAL-influenced (and *not* NU-metal) ultra-complex music to the current fashion of meter-changing clean guitar nerdy grad student post-rock. That's just a reality and I think the article makes that clear. So there are two strands, the first being Craw/Dazzling Killmen/Zeni Geva/Ruins/Don Caballero/Yona-Kit/Colossamite/Keelhaul, and the second coming out of the Louisville and Chicago "clean-guitar" sound with changing meters (Slint and its offspring, Tortoise, etc.) That Tool song in question is similar in style to the earlier style of post rock. Badagnani 04:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] math?
going from 3/4 to 4/4 to 6/8 to 5/4 is no more innovative than music that was composed as early as the late 15th century. What other elements qualify this as "Math" Rock? open discussion.....
- I think Math Rock is more about being part of a very geeky, specific, exclusive indierock scene and less to do with the style, innovation and complexity of the music itself. Steve Albini is considered the godfather of this genre--and although his band creates some very interesting odd-time-signature grooves, a lot of Shellac's music is simple, bone-crushing 4/4 hard rock. So Math Rock is nothing more than a name some snarky scenester or zinester came up with to label a certain movement/community.
- If it were really purely about crazy time signatures/polyrhythms etc., this article would have to include a lot of prog/extreme metal from the 90s and 00s, such as Gorguts, Cryptopsy and Meshuggah, not to mention later Tool, a band many hipsters find nauseating.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 16:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
-
- Maybe true of the music going under this moniker now, but it wasn't the case originally. It was clearly the musical style; the term probably came first from the critics but was an apt description. Badagnani 21:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] sources?
Is there any verifiable documentation for this article? It's a cool concept but it comes across a bit WP:NFT. 67.117.130.181 07:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Actually it starts to seem pretty lame, compared to stuff being done by Conlon Nancarrow and others, 50+ years ago and more. 67.117.130.181 08:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
