Talk:Menarche

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 References 2 Text needs discussion 3 % body fat 3.1 removal of: Signs of Menarche 4 Category:Human reproduction

[edit] References

This article needs one or more references to cover the content, added the tag. --FloNight 04:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text needs discussion

Moved text to talk for discussion. --FloNight 16:24, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Over the centuries, menarche has occurred younger, jsut as people have grown taller, due to improved diet and health. Recently it's been recognised that girls who don't live with their natural fathers (genetic fathers) reach puberty younger. Interestingly girls who grow up with another man (perhaps a cuckolded husband) reach puberty earliest, averaging 9 months younger. This often results in girls reacing puberty in primary school, before most sex education commences. (Ellis, Bruce J. Child Development; Vol. 74, no. 3 May / Jun. 2003)

Flonight, the move was the right thing. This is a crucial and fascinating topic. Main significance is not "cuckolding" (which we need to delete), but stepfathers or "mother's boyfriend". There are some extremely touchy angles to this issue for individual families. Besides the cuckolding comment, the other problems with the paragraph you moved here are

1. it lacks a mention of the magnitude of the phenomenon (i.e., does the presence of a non-related man in the household make puberty earlier by 1 month or 3 years on average-- big difference),
2. if it refers to puberty in general being hastened, it might go better in the puberty and precocious puberty articles,
3. the referenced article may not be the one with the data on timing but may just allude to it. I will try to track down the article and see what it references. alteripse 18:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

--PartTimeParent responds... general comment... yes it raises sensitive issues, but issues of published fact. Obviously cuckolding is a result of adultery, and so it raises sensitive issues for some people. But that is not to say that we should censor the facts of it's existence.

1. magnitude; the detail of the magnitude is not yet known. But it is clear that younger a child is denied it's natural father the greater the degree of prematurity menarche. 9 months is an average of the samples in the studies.
2. the effect of stepfathers is to cause premature puberty, so it is appropriate for it to be included briefly here. Agreed, it should also be referenced in puberty, cuckold and precocious puberty articles. I added it to these at the same time, but it appears to have been edited-out already, with no reason given.
3. I can email you a PDF of the journal article, if you wish. Send me a message to parttimeparent@yahoo.com.au

I spent time generating the articles yesterday to try to answer the above questions. Don't be offended-- I am not disagreeing with you about the encyclopedic value of mentioning the phenomenon, but it needed some context. Claiming that it was "edited out with no reason given" lowers your apparent reasonableness. It was moved for discussion and I took the trouble to respectfully notify you of the move and invite you to discuss and you are looking directly at the "reason given" on this page,-- most deletions are accompanied by much less around here. Your pain about this topic is obvious and I am sympathetic, but it is what needs to be removed from the entries here.

Let's keep the discussion in one place (here). Check back later today and I will post a proposed synopsis. OK? alteripse 11:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

PartTimeParent, all of us reading the same material is a good way to start the discussion. I will email you so you can send the PDF of the article.

The wording of the material you put in the articles may not be WP:NPOV. This is one of the key policies of WP. Review WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:NOR, if you haven't already. Working together, we'll come up with something that fits into the articles. --FloNight 20:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I am going through about a dozen articles from the Ellis reference. The most comprehensive and recent is Ellis BJ 2004 in Psych Bull (full ref in life history theory, which I just wrote for background, as this research needs grounding and context). More to come. alteripse 02:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The Ellis paper is large. I have nearly finished synopsizing it. If you are curious, see User:Alteripse/pubertal acceleration but it isnt ready to be made into an article yet. Although I have about a dozen more papers on this topic, they are all referenced by this one and probably will be quick to review. alteripse 19:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

---

I have emailled the paper I have to FloNite and it appears that alteripse has located another journal article on the same topic. This is my first wikipedia addition :-) 05:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I have finished reviewing all of the extant literature I could find on this topic. About a dozen papers are synopsized on my userpage link above. Most of the content is a long and detailed summary of Ellis' 2004 review, which recapitulates his earlier papers in more detail. Take a look if you haven't seen it. I have started some additions to puberty and will do the same to this article. List the points you think are worth making if you wish. alteripse 05:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] % body fat

We need to think about the best way to present information about % of body fat. I changed the word normal to regular.

I'm going to read further on this topic. No doubt % of body fat modifies menarche and menopause. Is it the controlling factor? The introduction reads that way to me now. FloNight ^talk 12:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removal of: Signs of Menarche

I removed the following because it is not quite correct or helpful. Menarche is a single event of puberty-- the first menstrual bleeding. The bleeding is described in the paragraph immediately above. We can mention that, like all menses, it may be accompanied by cramping, but this article does not need a section entitled "signs of". Strictly speaking, other secondary sexual development is not a sign of menarche, but rather an independent part of puberty. alteripse 16:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The list of signs and symptoms mentioned in various sources for Menarche includes those listed below. Note that Menarche symptoms usually refers to various symptoms known to a patient, but the phrase Menarche signs may refer to those signs only noticable by a doctor:

• Menstruation
• Abdominal pain
• Secondary sexual characteristics

[edit] Category:Human reproduction

I propose removing this article from Category:Human reproduction. I have proposed narrowing the scope of that category at Category talk:Human reproduction. Please comment on the category talk page. Lyrl ^Talk _C 15:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)