Talk:Mercia

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Contents 1 Mercland 2 Tolkien & Mercia? 3 Coconuts 4 map? 5 flags 6 Capital of Mercia 7 Pronunciation 8 Where is Mercia?

[edit] Mercland

I whacked the "Mercland" because there is zero evidence for it, and I just finished The Earliest English Kings which would have mentioned it if the name was real. So let's see the authority here. Stan 22:37, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's an interesting explanation, but still doesn't answer my question about authorities. My unabridged OED has a third of a column about "Mercia" and "Mercian", but "Mercland" is nowhere to be seen. If the term is not of your own invention, there must be somebody else who uses it also. Google only shows "Mercland" as a surname and for auto dealerships, but it's certainly possible that there are print authorities without web pages. We only need one. Stan 23:15, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's possible that because Mercia was "out of the loop" on written materials later than other parts of England, that "Mercland" had gone out of use before anything was written down in the vernacular. The OED sez "Mercia" is a latinization of Ole English "Mierce", so perhaps "land" was simply never added to the name. I don't have a textbook or dictionary of Old English at home, but will visit university library in a couple weeks, can look up then. Stan 00:53, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

But if it's not a real name, then it shouldn't be there. Otherwise you leave the door open to nutcases who say their study of Gnostic writings make it clear that it was really called "Oogabooga", and then the edit warring never stops. We have to have an authoritative source that we can cite by name. (Yes, not everything in WP has that level of support, but that's a bug, not a feature.) Stan 04:34, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No decrees needed! - just a use in print. That's how the OED works after all; they have a lot of really weird words, but each definition includes one or more quotes showing that it was really used by people; for modern words the quote may very well be something as minor as a campus newspaper, but it's still something verifiable. "Mierce" is cool with me, although I'd still like to investigate the "Mercland" possibility. Stan 07:01, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Okay, at the risk of stirring up the pot, I started to look thru my small collection of A-S references, & did find the forms "Myrcnaland", "Miercnalond" & "Mercnaland" attested in the A & D versions of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (Plummer's edition). P.H. Sawyer's Anglo-Saxon Charters only provides the original forms when they cannot be identified with the modern name, & the charters in my copies of Sweet's Anglo-Sazon Reader(15th ed.) & his A Second Anglo-Saxon Reader (2nd ed.) do not provide any meaningful help.

My guess is that the "-na-" syllable suggests a dative form of "Mercia", so it is possible that "Mercland" was used. It is in any case an uncommon variant.

However, I have to side with Stan that when one makes a contribution to Wikipedia, she/he should be prepared to provide some kind of support for the contribution. In this case, the English Place-Name Society has fairly well documented the various variants of every place name in England, even at times down to street & individual field names; their works are available in every public library in England (so I found when I checked in a couple of cities). Even my local public library here in Oregon even has a couple volumes that they produced. Taking a moment to consult this authoritative work should always replace guesswork.

Adding material without documentation -- even a newspaper article or pamphlet -- only leads to trouble. I've been engaged in a flame-war with someone who insists that his contributions "are true", but refuses to provide this desired documentation, despite my pleas; as a result some of the articles he has written has appeared on VfD -- & not because I nominated them. And the process of listing articles at VfD to keep out dubious material is a waste of everyone's time when simply supplying sources at the beginning could have avoided the ensuing debates. -- llywrch 18:04, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Interesting speculation. Sadly, Wikipedia does not treat speculation as fact... Morwen 18:14, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

Morwen, do you have access to any of the EPNS references I mentioned above? I figure that would have the authoritative answer to this question, & settle this matter.

And the issue of spelling Mercia can be overprecise: I've seen diplomatic texts that spell Mercia "Myrce", "Mierce" & "Mearce". Obviously the original writer was trying to capture the quality of the first vowel, which probably varied depending on how he heard it spoken, & his habits of spelling. Spelling was more of an art than a science before the introduction of the printing press.

BTW, the Mercian charters printed in A Second Anglo-Saxon Reader (2nd ed.) call kings Offa & Ethelbald rex merciorum -- "king of the Mercias". So if we want to add contemporary variants on Mercia to this article, we should add all of them; it will be quite a chore to collect them, unless someone can find a paper that has done so. -- llywrch 23:11, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Note to the reader: the reason for the bizarre appearance of the above dialogue is that Kenneth Alan afterwards deleted all of his comments. He believes that their existence in the history of changes for this page is a sufficient record. -- llywrch 17:47, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Tolkien & Mercia?

Someone added a "see also" link from this article to J. R. R. Tolkien. A glance at that article fails to show what relevance Mercia has to this writer. (Yes, Tolkien was an expert on Old English -- & how does that relate to Mercia?) Unless someone objects, I'm going to remove that link. -- llywrch 01:42, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree. It's no secret Tolkien based the language/names of Rohan on Old English, but I'd like to see some reference to the Mercian dialect. I've never heard of the "Mercian dialect" anyway. --Jquarry 02:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coconuts

Is it possible to find coconuts in Mercia? Or would they have to be carried there by swallows? --Thephotoman 06:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

African Swallows - Marc29th 01:48, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

No, African swallows are non-migratory. --JerryOrr 17:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] map?

I think this article would benefit from a map. That is, I'm confused as to the exact location of Mercia and would like to see a map. Does anyone know where to find one?Marksman45 09:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added one. Thanks for bringing it up. Everyking 09:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, thanks! That helps me out a lot. Marksman45 20:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] flags

anyone ever seen that flag flying?

'White Dragon' flag

I have repeatedly asked user TharkunColl for evidence that the white dragon flag he has posted on the Mercia page was actually in use during the Anglo-Saxon period. TharkunColl has added this text to the image:

‘In pagan times the Mercians fought under the banner of the white dragon. This remained in use during the Christian period as well’

When I asked for any Anglo-Saxon literary or archaeological evidence of this, I was accused of vandalism and invited to check his reference. This turns out to be this vague comment in the Flags of the World web page:

‘There is a medieval map of the English "heptarchy", a period where there were seven Anglo-Saxon kingdoms at war with each other. This map, made I believe in the 12th Century after the heptarchy period is illustrated with banners of the kingdoms. Those shown for Essex, Kent and Sussex appear to be very similar to their "county standards" today, while East Anglia has three crowns on a white background, Mercia appears to have a white dragon of some kind’

This note does not specifically identify which medieval map is referred to, only claims that Mercia ‘appears to have a white dragon of some kind’ and does not refer to any symbol earlier than the 12th century, centuries after the end of the Kingdom of Mercia. How does TharkunColl get ‘in pagan times the Mercians fought under the banner of the white dragon’ from that citation? It is widely understood that these symbols of the Heptarchy kingdoms which appear on old maps and manuscripts were invented by medieval heralds to represent the old Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, just as they invented coats of arms for Adam, Jesus and King David. ssex (difficulty of trying to copy from one Windows window to another! --jmb 12:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I repeat my earlier proposal, that there is no Anglo-Saxon literary or archaeological evidence that the Mercians used a ‘white dragon’ flag. This image should certainly not appear above the St. Alban’s cross, which is the traditional, well-known and widely-used emblem of Mercia, and really should be deleted as it appears to be an invention. The flag has already been cited for deletion once, back in September 2006, and its continuing presence is misleading in a fact-based online encyclopedia

The famous Welsh legend of the red dragon fighting the white dragon refers to the wars between the Welsh and the Mercians. To call it "pagan" is, I think, a justified inference based on the fact that the Mercians were pagans at the time. TharkunColl 11:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought you might bring that up...but a symbolic Welsh legend referring to dragons fighting is not historical evidence of an actual flag used by the Mercians, any more than the legend of Merlin is archaeological evidence that Stonehenge was magically transported from Ireland to Salisbury Plain.

In your note at [1] you claim ‘I created this image myself’. However, it is identical to the dragon emblem on merchandise from the ‘England First Party’ (see [2]), who are the only other source I have found for the claim that the white dragon was used as an emblem by Anglo-Saxons. Their web site is clearly POV and cannot be cited in support of your claim.

So, again, please provide firm evidence from Anglo-Saxon literature or archaeology for the use of this flag or it will be cited for deletion.

You will notice that their dragon has a red background, as is typical of English nationalists. Perhaps they created it by using the image from Wikipedia? TharkunColl 23:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

the flag is mentioned in Schama --Isolani 16:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to take my former claim back, the flag Schama talked about was the Wyvern and had no links with mercia as such, I agree that the historical status of the flag needs to be cleared up. --Isolani 10:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm changing the shade of blue of the St. Albans cross from the blue of the flag of Scotland to a more accurate one. Cdh1984 11:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

A couple of books suggest it was a golden dragon

The Symbols, Standards, Flags and Banners of Ancient and Modern Nations By George Henry Preble refers to the "golden dragon, standard of Wessex" [3] --jmb 11:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Also The History and Antiquities of Boston: and the villages of Skirbeck,Fishtoft, Freiston,... By Pishey Thompson

"The banner displayed by Ethelbald .... was a golden dragon which became adopted as the flag of Mercia" [4] --jmb 11:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I have updated the flag accordingly, and removed the OR tag. TharkunColl 12:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Was Mercia ruled by Wessex for a time so perhaps only golden for that period - sorry the first reference should have read We

This reference is very ambiguous The Encircled Serpent: A Study of Serpent Symbolism in All Countries and Ages By M Oldfield Howey [5] --jmb 12:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Contributor TharkunColl is clearly determined to foist an invented Mercian flag of some sort upon Wikipedia for some obscure reason of his own. His own Talk page indicates he is relentless in pursuing POV with numerous warnings about his conduct, and other users have tried and failed to get rid of this imaginary flag. I'm afraid I have other things to do than pursue revert wars. However, for the record (as Wikipedia is a fact-based online encyclopedia, and it would be on my conscience if anybody was misled by TharkunColl's contribution), there is no evidence from any of the surviving Anglo-Saxon literature or archaeological discoveries of a Mercian flag comprising a white or golden dragon, and none of the standard academic publications or websites on Mercia or vexillology refer to any such flag.

[edit] Capital of Mercia

Which city is the capital of Mercia? In school I was told it was Repton in Derbyshire, but this page says it was Tamworth. I 'googled' 'Capital of Mercia' and got entries for both Repton and Tamworth. Where they both capitals? Jsp3970 16:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• Repton was the location of the principal royal burial site of the Mercian kings, many of whose tombs are preserved in the church there to the present day. Tamworth was the principal royal residence for most of Mercian history, though other residences existed elsewhere, such as at Repton. TharkunColl 18:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I checked around and the information seems to claim that Repton was the first capital, and it was later moved to Tamworth. Jsp3970 20:33, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Such thing as a capital city didn't really exist in those days. What is normally regarded as the capital is the main royal residence. Deaþe gecweald 10:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Pardon my ignorance, but how exactly is Mercia pronounced? Here's a few alternatives (my guess is top-most)....

• MER-see-a
• MER-kee-a
• MER-sya
• MER-shya
• MER-kya

--Jquarry 02:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The historian Michael Wood, in his BBC series In Search of the Dark Ages, pronounced it like the first on your list. TharkunColl 08:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I've always pronounced it somewhere between the first and third, a short ee merging into the ya. Of course I'm dead common so I might be wrong. MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 20:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey I'm an Aussie, so go no further if you want the pronunciation of beautiful English words mangled to oblivion :p --Jquarry 09:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The pronounciation of 'c' as 's' was one of the changes introduced by the Normans.

The Anglo-Saxons pronounced 'c' as 'k'.

Hence 'Cedd' is 'Kedd', 'Cerdic' is 'Kerdik', 'Bernicia' is 'Bernikia' and 'Mercia' is 'Merkia'. --JohnArmagh 09:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

This is incorrect. The Anglo-Saxons pronounced "c" in front of "e" and "i" as "ch" (e.g. in the word cild, meaning "child"). Furthermore, the Anglo-Saxon spelling of Mercia was Mierce, and is closely related to the modern word "march", meaning border (e.g. the Welsh Marches). TharkunColl 09:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The word Mercia is just a latinised version of Mierce, the Mercian name for Mercia. Therefore, you would probably pronounce it something like IPA [mɜ:siə]. Deaþe gecweald 10:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where is Mercia?

Surely Shropshire, Herefordshire and Worcestershire, Warwickshire, West Midlands and Staffordshire need to be mentioned in the opening paragrapg as where it cover? http://whitedragon.org.uk/whereism.htm Robert C Prenic 23:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The source that you cite is an unreliable one, I'm afraid. At least half of the area you describe was not part of the original kingdom, and only became so through later conquests. TharkunColl 23:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You are right. In the Wikipedia article it clearly states that Merica "was one of the kingdoms of the Anglo-Saxon heptarchy, centred on the valley of the River Trent and its tributaries in what is now the Midlands of England. Mercia's neighbours included..." I do apologise as I read this wrong and if you look at the Midlands entry, it covers Shropshire for example. The entry is perfectly fine, it was me reading it wrong. And, I also apologise for giving this source, I thought they may know as White Dragon is based on Mercia. Robert C Prenic 11:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes but reread, they say 'in Paganlink terms', in terms of a previous pagan organisation, that is the area called Mercia:) And remember, too Pagans rewrite reality and history to suit their fantasies.Merkinsmum 12:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)