Talk:Messalina
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[edit] Messalina's grandfather
According to very reliable sources, Messalina's grandfather is not Marcus Valerius Messala Messalinus but Marcus Valerius Messala Barbatus Appianus, a Claudius Pulcher by birth (son of Appius Claudius Pulcher, cos. 38BC) adopted by Marcus Valerius Messala, cos. suff. 32BC (see Levick, Claudius, Table 2 "Messalina's connections"). Also, Messalina never had a brother called Corvinus and her father was never consul (see Anthony Barrett, Agrippina, Appendix II: The husbands of Domitia and Lepida). I noticed that many wikipedia entries related to members of the Julio-Claudian dynasty contain a lot of false or erroneous information (for instance, Antonia the Elder's full name was NOT Julia (???) Antonia Cretica (???) Major but just Antonia Major; the daughter of Drusus II was not named Claudia Livia Julia Helena but just Julia (she's generally refered to as Iulia Drusi filia, even if some writers call her Livia Julia or Julia Livilla); Agrippina the Younger's full name was not Julia VIPSANIA (????) Agrippina Minor and she's called Agrippinilla only in Robert Graves' novel I, Claudius; Domitia Lepida's sister is not named Domitia Lepida Major, but just Domitia, etc.).
I suspect some fellow to just make up information about Julio-Claudian family members. It's very sad, because this makes wikipedia a not very reliable source of information. Are there not people at Wikipedia who verify the information contained in their articles?
Messalina's grandfather is Marcus Valerius Messalla Messallinus. You can check in Tacitus, annals and the Caligula the movie, family page. Messalina's father Marcus Valerius Messalla Barbatus was consul in 19AD, at the time when his cousin Germanicus Caesar died. Check Tacitus, annals again. According to Modern historians, he either died in 20 or early 21AD and not much is known of him. Messalla Barbatus, is known in Suetonius as Marcus Valerius Messalla Barbatus and in Tacitus he is known as Marcus Valerius Messalla Messallinus II. So all I have written in the article about Messalina's family is true and reliable. 14 April 2006.
Even if your sources appear reliable (except for the "Caligula movie page"; frankly, this is not what I call a 'reliable' source), I see that you misinterpret a lot of things and you seem to make easy connections very rapidly. First of all, the Valerius you refer to was consul in 20 AD, not in 19 AD (the consuls of 19 were M. Iunius Silanus Torquatus and L. Norbanus Balbus; check your source correctly). Second, this Valerius is named M. Valerius Messala Messalinus, not BARBATUS, so check again. Third, this Messalinus was the son of another Messalinus, consul in 3 BC, who was not linked at all with the Julio-Claudian dynasty (please refer to the Prosopographia Imperii Romani, which is considered as the 'Bible' of the 'Who's Who' of the Roman Empire).
You say that according to modern historians, Barbatus' date of death has been establish. But which historians? Please, be more precise than that.
And on what basis do you identify the Barbatus from Suetonius with the Messalinus from Tacitus? What is your reference for such a bold affirmation?
I suggest you refer to serious sources like the ones published by Yale University Press (and written by renown scholars like Barbara Levick and Anthony Barrett) rather than solely on your frail intepretation of the Ancient sources or on Robert Graves' novels (they may be great books of fiction with a good historical basis, but they contained many fictionalized aspects).
I guess you're Anriz, surely a well-intended person who wants to participate to the Wikipedia project but who seems sadly ill-informed. Don't be afraid, I won't edit this article again (anyway, every time I do it, it seems to upset you a lot and you promptly revert every edits I make). I'm quite new with Wikipedia and I thought that really serious people were involved in this project. But I see I was wrong, so I won't waste my time anymore with Wikipedia.
So, enjoy yourself, Anriz!
206.172.132.88
April 15, 2006
[edit] Claudius indifferent to her death?
What is the source of the anecdote about Claudius blithely asking for more wine when told of her death? It contradicts Graves' account in Claudius the God.
- It's from Tacitus (Annals 11:38. Suetonius (Claudius 39) says Claudius went to dinner immediately after having her executed, and "absent-mindedly" asked why she wasn't there. The primary sources agree he appeared unmoved by her death. Claudius the God is a work of fiction, and Graves (who translated Suetonius for Penguin Classics) was obviously taking a bit of artistic licence. --Nicknack009 22:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
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- And note that even in the novel Claudius the God, Claudius behaves as Tacitus describes (blithe and unconcerned at Messalina's death). In the novel, this is because Claudius had been drugged by his physician so he could function; he doesn't grieve until later, when the drug is removed. Narsil 00:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the paragraph about Claudius the God. That's more of a comparison between the novel and history than part of her biography. It belongs over at the page on I, Claudius. Remember that the novel is told from Claudius' point of view, and so he reacts in a personal way that cannot be confirmed in the historical record. All we have are second-hand reports - and they indicate that he was not exactly devastated at her downfall and execution. Suetonius suggests that Claudius was more concerned at the time with surviving the coup attempt than any love between them (Suetonius, Life of Claudius, 36). LaurenCole 06:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pic of Messalina
I found a lovely pic of Messalina at this website http://italianalmanac.org/biografie/messalina.htm, but I don't know how to create an external link from the Wikiarticle to the page in question. But since the pic is public domain I have already placed it on Messalina's page. The Fading Light 8:14, 28 March 2006
I like the new picture of Valeria Messalina. I have seen this picture on a series on the Roman Empire in the first century, when they were talking about her in the reign of Claudius. Anriz 30 March 2006.
[edit] Messalina's age upon marriage.
- In keeping with the historical views at the time the novels were written (1934), Messalina is portrayed as a young teenager at the time of her marriage.
Not saying this is false, but can anyone enlighten me as to why historians changed their opinion of her birthdate/age? SnowFire 04:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
