Talk:Middle Irish

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[edit] Outdated definition

This is entirely obsolete. "Middle Irish" is today only used for the form of the language used in the 10th to 12th centuries, i.e. after Old Irish but before Classical (Early Modern) Irish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.16.202.19 (talk • contribs) .

You seem to know what you're talking about; can you then edit the article or provide a reference for more information so we can do the same? --Saforrest 17:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The anon is quite right; I'm adding some sources showing that the term "Middle Irish" refers to the language only to the end of the 12th century. —Angr 21:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "All but proven"?

Thomas Owen Clancy has recently all but proven that the Lebor Bretnach, the so-called "Irish Nennius", was written in Scotland, and probably at the monastery in Abernethy.

What does this mean? It should be clarified. FilipeS 20:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

In other words he cannot prove that it was, despite the support of the above writer of this theory:}80.192.59.202 23:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC) The argument that "these manuscripts would never have survived in Scotland" seems a very convenient one for an unproven theory. Pretty spurious really, seeing as how Middle Irish manuscripts have turned up in non Irish speaking England!80.192.59.202 23:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "Middle Irish" mss from Scotland survive only from England too. England's a big place. Anyways, as far as Clancy is concerned, all you need to do is go read the article. Clancy's arguments, which consist mainly of internal evidence (again, go read it), are pretty compelling. Substantial scholarly backing has already been achieved, and despite the intervening years, no counter article has as yet been published (compare Clancy's Ninian argument, which although compelling and now achieving consensus status, provoked several responses very quickly). You haven't actually read it, and have been going around making POV edits (calling Gaelic "Irish" and all the usual nonsense); just go read it. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Eh um? "calling Gaelic Irish"? Isn't Irish the English name for the indiginous language of Ireland?

84.135.242.170 13:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Which was prolly why I was using Gaelic to mean "Scottish Gaelic". Sorry, I should have made it clearer. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I have removed some of the weasel words contained in the opening paragraph. Gal Lass 13:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm contemplating whether or not to revert you. I mean, Clancy hasn't just argued this, he has effectively proven it, and that should be in the text. It now looks like it's some fringe, little accepted theory, whereas in fact Clancy (an American) is an one of the world's leading Old Irish linguists and cultural historians, and in the words of Dauvit Broun "Clancy, however, has recently shown that Lebor Bretnach was written in Scotland" (Dauvit Broun, "The Picts' Place in the Kingship's Past", in Edward J. Cowan & Richard J. Finlay (eds.), Scottish History: The Power of the Past, (Edinburgh, 2002), p. 20, n. 32). The point that the comparative lack of Scottish Gaelic mss is probably due to the anglicization of the late medieval Scottish (esp. clerical) elite is both obviou and made by many modern historians. Tell me why I shouldn't revert you? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Gal Lass's edit. "Prove" is an incredibly strong word, especially outside of mathematics. I haven't read Clancy's work, but no matter how convincing his arguments are, it's just not NPOV to state his conclusions as "all but proven" fact in a way that implies any attempt to argue to the contrary will be futile. The current wording does not imply it's "some fringe, little accepted theory" at all, but neither does it imply that Clancy is the last word on the subject. That's keeping to the NPOV. (I also wonder why you call him "one of the world's leading Old Irish linguists" when to judge from the list of publications given at Thomas Owen Clancy he's never written on linguistics at all.) —Angr 07:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, firstly, it never said proven. Secondly, the "The Drosten Stone: a new reading" is lingustic, as is "Annat in Scotland and the origins of the parish" and to some extent "The real St Ninian" and "A Gaelic Polemic Quatrain from the Reign of Alexander I, ca. 1113"; as are his translations in The Triumph Tree: Scotland’s Earliest Poetry, 550–1350 and Iona: the earliest poetry of a Celtic monastery. Maybe the only way one can find that out is by actually reading them! Thirdly, the whole point of the paragraph was to give some kind of explanation as to why so much survives from Ireland and so little from Scotland. So, explain to me why I shouldn't revert? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I thought all but proven to be weasel words. Why mention the book at all. We don't see this phraseology often on WP, especially in an opening section <re-edited from paragraph>. I very carefully changed it to make it less contentious. Gal Lass 23:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL. They weren't "weasel words" as far as I can see. Why do you mention opening paragraph btw? I'm curious ... ? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL. You have "all but" proven your claim then. You must be "all but right" in claiming its having been proven:}80.192.59.202 11:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the precise definition of "all but proven" by the way? (i thought "all but something" would indicate its absnce rather than its presence.}82.41.4.66 15:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I all but disagree :}82.41.4.66 13:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)