Talk:Miscarriage
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"In the past, a frequently used euphemism for miscarriage was to say that the mother "lost the baby". This phrase is not as popular in current times, because there is less of a cultural stigma on discussing issues related to reproduction, and because some people feel that it carries the connotation that the expectant mother was, somehow, at fault for the miscarriage."
I don't see evidence of any of those points having any validity. This seems like, rather than inserting useful information, this is more somebody inserting their PC opinion into the article. In each miscarriage that I've known about, the phrase in question is exactly the term that has been used to describe it. The idea of it connoting responsibility on the mother's part never occurred to me until I read this article. I'm erasing the paragraph. Mr. Billion 19:10, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
My wife and I have been going through fertility treatment for almost three years now and have experienced three miscarriages. In conversations among friends who've gone through the same experience, as well as at group counseling sessions, the families I've met generally refer to it as a miscarriage, though it's not uncommon to hear that they've "experienced a loss." I've never hear any of them argue one way or another for these terms; I think they just use what's most comfortable to them. I imagine all of us who've gone through this are comfortable with the term "loss" because it's captures the grieving element. But I haven't heard anyone avoid the term because they think it suggests the mother is (or feels) at fault. I think almost all women feel that it "their fault" even though that's usually not the case. Time and time again you hear in counseling "what did I do wrong? Could have I done anything to prevent it?" It's a normal part of the grieving process.... --Acarvin 20:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It is unfortunate this article only perspective is medical. Management of pregnancy loss is not ONLY about removing a dead thing and surrounding tissues. There is always a psychological consequence of a loss and it the physical and psychological consequences of several miscarriages should be explored for the article to become a decent resource. Anthere 23:51, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Ratio of miscarriages seems high
Article says 15 percent - which seems way too high. -St|eve 06:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
No this rate is correct. 20% have bleeding in first 20weeks and in all 15% do miscarry. I'll add the BMJ referrence to the article. -David Ruben 21:06, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
this ratio is particularly bad in our specees.authers have far better statistics.our big brain and low genetic diversity is to be blamed,or something like that.--Ruber chiken 18:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to see something on rates of miscarriage in twin pregnancies - I don't know enough about it to do it myself but am pregnant with a (so far) surviving one of an initial twin pregnancy, and came here to see if there was anything on the survival rates if one twin miscarries.
[edit] The grief section- neutral?
"From the moment a woman becomes pregnant she starts to bond with her unborn child." Um, I don't think this is physically possible. If many women do not know they are pregnant when they have a miscarriage as pointed out earlier in the article (and indeed many never know and chalk it up to a heavy period) then how on earth can they be bonding with the child? I have also added the fact that people do indeed induce miscarriages and may therefore welcome one to the grief section- there are people who really do not want children and do not mourn a miscarriage; it is, after all, the same result as having an abortion, which many women elect to do. --Dandelions 17:53, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
- Dandelions - What a horrible thing to say. Miscarriage is NOT abortion! People that have abortions need to use contraception. They ELECT to have an abortion - no woman "elects" to have a miscarriage. I think you would find if you actually spoke to women that have had miscarriages that all of them suffer with grief and would never actually welcome a miscarriage or the feeling it brings. You are also reading the article out of context, it is quite obvious that if the woman doesn't know she is pregnant then there is no bonding, I don't think that is suggested here. There are also a lot of women that monitor their cycle and find out they are pregnant BEFORE their period is actually due, which would put them in the category of feeling like they are having a heavy period when their period is due when they are actually aware that they are miscarrying. You need help with empathy and compassion. I think this is a subject that you need to stay aware from in the future. I truely pity any woman that crosses your path. 203.164.19.57 (talk • contribs).
Will you please avoid personal attacks? You also deleted Dandelion's post - please do not refactor material without consensus, especially if you are attacking exactly that material.
Dandelion is quite right in asserting that a woman can only bond with a child when she knows she's pregnant, and some women (e.g. the ones that have abortus provocatus) do not bond for one reason or the other. JFW | T@lk 15:55, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Dandelion. It is limiting to say that a miscarriage (if the pregnancy is known) only induces grief. I have friends who have had miscarriages and were relieved, some were glad, as they did not want the pregnancy. Contraception is not 100% effective. A person who reads this miscarriage entry should not be led to believe that there is something wrong with a person who does not feel grief after a miscarriage. Compassion does not apply to only certain people, personal attacker above. I made minor edits to include more responses as normal. Whole Shebang 02:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the article needs to say something to the effect that women (and their partners) who are looking forward to parenthood experience grief. I'm sure there are cases where women who didn't want to be pregnant in the first place don't experience grief, but for women who do want to be pregnant, it's often one of the most traumatic experiences in their lives. That's certainly been the case for me and my wife. I know there are exceptions, of course, but generally speaking, couples who were happy to have been pregnant take the loss with much grief , anger and a sense of helplessnless. --Acarvin 20:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
First of all, medically miscarriage is often called 'spontaneous abortion'. So in that sense it is an abortion. Secondly even if the pregnancy was not planned, the woman can feel very bereaved. My friend experienced this. As soon as the couple decide to keep the embryo, they will start bonding and planning their life for the arrival. But I agree, there are women who are relieved if they were not happy about the pregnancy (one ther friend lost her fetus at 20 weeks, but she was relieved as it was an accident). Every case is different. As I have experience of miscarriage myself, I feel people should be made more aware of how common tbis is, and how bereaved, sad and angry a lot of the women feel. Often you don't get any support. Often people (friends, family, colleagues) make comments about 'it being nothing yet anyway' and 'it is better if it end this way then having a handicapt child'. This does not help the woman or couple but just causes more pain.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ebosman (talk • contribs) 12:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Frequency chart
A chart of length of pregnancy and frequency of miscarriages would probably be helpful for many people.
[edit] Experience
I think the information added to this section of this edit is important - the article was missing the basic description of symptoms, investigation and likely treatment. However:
- Some of this duplicates the more techical discussion on the various types later (not necessarily bad - WP articles often have repeatition with later sections elaborating and giving greater detail than the opening overview sections)
- There is already a later section of 'Management' which is unecessary splitting of the topic.
- 'Experience' is a weak term, and not used as standard in other health related articles.
- This article needs the addition of section headings of 'Symptoms', 'Investigation' and moving the 'Management' section up.
- However this would make the 'Causes' section seem out of place
- ideas anyone of how to reorder this article both for some logical sequence but also keeping a general overview at the start (I tried a few ways but none seemed satisfactory) ? David Ruben Talk 04:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Habitual abortion (N96)
The section on Habitual Abortion may be misquoting statistics from the study that it references.
- Above posted by User:199.1.42.30 14:48, 16 May 2006
[edit] External links
There seem to be quite a few grief sites in the external link section. I'm concerned that we don't really have a way to evaluate the quality of these sites in order to include only the best ones. And there are entirely too many of them to allow every miscarriage grief site to be included.
I'm wondering if we should just delete all the grief sites and only include informational webpages in the external links section? Lyrl Talk Contribs 19:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Although the quality of the sites may not have been evaluated, as one who has experienced several miscarriages, I found the grief site links very useful. I think that one or two grief sites should be allowed to stay on the list.
- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.187.164.25 (talk • contribs). 22:28, 4 October 2006
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- If included support sites are listed merely as examples, then this is not an appropriate use of external links. A website should be included under EL for fair specific reasons: it is mentioned in teh article, it specifically adds information to a level not appropriate directly within wikipedia, it is a major organisation (e.g. UK or US national organisation). But to cherry pick just a select few is unfair on other non-icluded websites and not the purpose of external links - wikipedia is not a directory service (that's what learning to perform a search on Google et al is about). So my twopence of opinion is delete non-notable (i.e. no national recognistion by media, government or the relevant specialist bodies) support sites. David Ruben Talk 22:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A little ambigious
About 30% of fertilized eggs are actually lost before the woman knows she is pregnant and may only be noticeable by slightly increased blood loss.
Does this include only miscaried or born babies as well ?---- Xil/talk 21:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- Of embryos that are created, at least 30% never implant in the uterus. There is no way to detect pregnancy before implantation, so the woman involved would never know she had conceived. (The statement in the quote above about increased blood loss is false and I have removed it from the article.) Lyrl Talk Contribs 02:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Before implantation - should this article address that?
Some sources consider an embryo that does not implant (and therefore could not have been detected with the normal pregnancy tests) to still be a miscarriage. (Search for the term "before implantation" on the following pages: [2] [3] [4] [5]).
Should rates of fertilization-but-no-implantation be addressed on this page? Lyrl Talk C 14:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Premature birth
I had originally written the premature birth section to point out why the phrase "premature birth" might be used at a point in gestation that most sources would call it a "miscarriage". Thus the specific (cited!) reference to infants crying after being born at 16 weeks of gestation; even though that falls before the 20-week "cutoff" for not being a miscarriage, I don't think anyone is going to call something that results in a crying baby a "miscarriage".
The section has now been edited to discuss survival rates of premature births, which seems outside the scope of the "miscarriage" article. I gather there was something that struck the editor as not right about my description, but I don't think this was the most appropriate way to fix it.
Any perspectives from other editors on what should be done with that section? Lyrl Talk C 02:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Miscarriage can be caused by Thrombophilia
I am trying to raise awareness of the dangers that genetic blood clotting disorders such as Factor V Leiden and Prothrombin 20210A (both of which I have) cause to women and unborn babies.
1 in 40 women have one or more of these disorders and many of them don't know. I know from experience within my family that these disorders cause miscarriage. So many women have lost multiple babies when it could have been prevented.
I have created a small website with the help of my husband which I hope will be a help to women in my situation.
My web address is www.thrombo.co.uk
84.64.101.251 13:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
