Talk:Mission School

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Mission School was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: 30 October 2006

An entry from Mission School appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 1 November 2006.

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The following users are actively contributing to this topic and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Peter G Werner (talk • email)

An individual covered in this article, Mission School, has edited Wikipedia as CAMPSF (talk • contribs).

[edit] Classification

certainly fails GA nomination. this is not even a B class article. lacks organizaation, headings and breadth. hasnt been related well to other historical movements of art in calif. only has one reference! Anlace 21:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think your assessment is a bit harsh here. One reference? No, there are about 9 sources given altogether, though all but one are simple links and are not listed in bibliographic format. That can be fixed, of course. Lacks subheadings - true, but its a short article. Lacks organization? How so? Specifics? Related well to to other art movements in California? As I stated, it is related to the "Lowbrow art" movement centered in Los Angeles, but trying to related to things like, say, the Bay Area Figurative Movement would be a bit artificial.

If this were an article about a multi-decade international art movement like Surrealism, I'd agree the coverage wouldn't be adequate, but a small (albeit influential) regional movement like this one? I think the article is at least B-class in its coverage of this subject, but I'm hardly the most objective reviewer. Peter G Werner 03:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Harsh is my job as the article's outside observer. In any case i have never seen a B class article this brief--let alone GA. It just has a long way to go. Set aside the reference issue for a moment (i was just looking more for monographs, not such heavy reliance on web references), let's concentrate on format and content. The article certainly needs subheadings to help the reader navigate. But most importantly the article lacks breadth:

(now im getting into writing the article for you):

• needs discussion of roots of movement. Dont tell me it grew out of nowhere or on the streets. i can see influences of artists from the 1960s and even earlier (eg Mexican Muralists)
• if it is so influential, whom or what did it influence?
• venue: is it just on the streets or in the museums as well. If in the museums, who started the serious collecting and what did reviewers say of the work? In any private galleries?

That's just a start. there are probably many other areas of expansion and breadth available if the movement is as important as you think. Dont get me wrong. I support practically any article on art. I just want our standards to be meaningful for art articles. Regards. Anlace 04:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Good suggestions, and even if the article isn't GA-worthy yet, I appreciate the suggestions on how to bring it up. However, when you mention "venue: is it just on the streets or in the museums as well. If in the museums, who started the serious collecting and what did reviewers say of the work? In any private galleries?" – Did you read the article? I have a list of a number of San Francisco galleries (to which I probably should add New York's Deitch Projects) and one museum that are closely associated with this movement, as well as the participation of several of these artists in two Venice and Whitney Biennials. As for "web sources", well, these included the Glen Helfand article, as well as the Stretcher.org articles, which happened to be primary references on the subject. Peter G Werner 06:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failing GA

Hi,

I agree with the above editor's comments that this article is not yet at GA standard.

Points to resolve before renominating:

• The page needs to have a coherent structure using headings as specificed by MoS
• References should be placed using Inline citations - not just web links - this has been done correctly for one reference in the article already.
• In places the prose is not compelling. Consider: "Though this art movement is generally considered to have emerged in the early 1990s around a core group of artists who attended or were associated with San Francisco Art Institute during this time, the term "Mission School" was not coined until 2002, in a San Francisco Bay Guardian article by Glen Helfand". The "during this time" is very clumsy and the sentence itself is overly long.
• Hard to determine the stability of an article that was only created 2 days ago!

However, the article is good on the NPOV front and it is a good start, but I'm afraid on this occasion that it just doesn't cut the GA criteria.

Martin Hinks 11:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments by CAMPSF

Aaron Noble was never considered part of "the 'Mission School' except for the article that appeared in Art In America. Wiki really needs to do a better job of its research before publishing!!! Likewise, Rigo23 was never considered a part of the Mission School except for the article by Glen Helfand. The best resource for defining THE MISSION SCHOOL is an essay that was written by Rene Pritikin for Amy Franchscini's book. Wiki should look into these before blindly publishing what you don't know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CAMPSF (talk • contribs) 05:34, 23 February 2007.

Egads! How to respond to these comments!

First, such commentary belongs here on the Talk pages, not in the middle of a Wikipedia article where you placed it. Second, when dealing with Wikipedia disputes it helps to maintain a civil tone, which you clearly are not doing here. Also, "Wiki" doesn't research anything – Wikipedia is writen by its editors – people like you and me – using published sources as a basis.

As for "blindly publishing what you don't know", I happend to have written most of this article and I stand by what I wrote. Wikipedia is supposed to be be derived from multiple, non-trivial, published, cited sources and that's what I've done here. Yes, I've drawn heavily on the Glen Helfand article (he counts both Rigo and Aaron Noble as "Mission School" artists, BTW). It just so happens that he was the first person to publish the term "Mission School", and the overwhelming consensus of subsequent literature is that the term "Mission School" is something he more or less defined, for better or worse. (I am aware of Renny Pritikin's article – you should note that I've linked to it under "References".)

I'll note that Wikipedia is based on published sources rather than original research. From your username, I take it you have some kind of connection with Clarion Alley Mural Project. I also gather you have some kind of beef with Glen Helfand. That's a valid opinion and I'm sure you have valid "insider" info on the "Mission School", but without reference to published sources, your opinion that Glen Helfand is wrong is just that – one person's unpublished opinion. Peter G Werner 07:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)