Talk:Monarchy

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Contents 1 distinguishing characteristic 2 Economics 3 communist states 4 primogeniture 5 alternate use 6 republic 7 Renaissance Popes 8 Improvement drive 9 this is terrible 10 Fake entry in Current Monarchies 11 Weird glitch 12 Small changes 13 Removed Vandalism 14 Map 15 King Juan Carlos 16 Criticism 17 monarchy = discrimination 18 Samoa 19 Odd linguistic structures 20 Map is wrong. 21 Royal 22 Afghanistan

[edit] distinguishing characteristic

I don't think it's so clear that "The distinguishing characteristic of a monarchy is that the position of monarch involves inheritance in some form." There probably is no one single distinguishing characteristic of a monarchy: some monarchies were elective rather than inherited. I think the fact that there is no term of office (i.e., the monarch serves until death or abdication) is more distinctive: "Presidents for Life" are monarchs in all but name. -- Someone else 22:49 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)

I don't agree. A monarch is an hereditary ruler. The examples you give could be better described as republics or dictatorships.

And yet their rulers were kings. go figure. -- Someone else 05:57 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Economics

Is there anyone who can add the economic theories of a monarchy and all the factors that go along with them. This article does not go very indepth at all into the economic theories of a monarchy. (Demon Slayer 02:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC))

[edit] communist states

I remove this paragraph:

It has been noted that a disproportionate number of communist states have existed within former monarchies. One possible explanation for this is that the overthrown monarchy frequently creates a national consciousness, a government bureaucracy, and an intelligensia that ultimately bring about the overthrow of the monarchy and the establishment of a communist state. On the other hand, a disproportionate number of non-communist republics also have monarchical pasts. And another possible explanation is, that many of them were caught up in the same sets of post 1918 and post 1945 events; what appears to be too many cases to be explained by coincidence is simply one collection of cases falling under the same sweeping coincidence.

fuck a dick in your asss like big balls moms hot(but I'd also note that the contents are at best tangentially related to "monarchy".) Perhaps it's just my understanding that's flawed, but to me the paragraph just says most states, communist and non-communist, were formerly monarchies. Why does this require an explanation? And what "denominator" would one use to decide what "proportionate" would be? -- Someone else 05:57 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] primogeniture

I have deleted the following: "The order of succession in most European monarchical states of the 21st century is by primogeniture: the royal line passes through the eldest surviving male and then the eldest female if no males survive."

First of all, because it uses an incorrect definition of primogeniture, which apparently originates from a mistake in the Alt.talk.royalty FAQ. 'Primogeniture' is simply used for every succession type that prefers a first born to a junior. The systems used in Sweden, Britain and Liechtenstein are all different forms of primogeniture.
Secondly, even _if_ this definition were correct, the statement that it is used by most European monarchical states of the 21st century is incorrect:

• only 4 out of 11 European monarchies use primogeniture with preference for males: the UK, Denmark, Monaco and Spain
• 4 monarchies use full cognatic primogeniture: Sweden, the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium
• 1 monarchy is semi-salic: Luxembourg
• 1 monarchy still uses Salic law: Liechtenstein
• 1 monarchy is elective: the Papacy Erwin 13:56, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] alternate use

The term monarchy is also used to refer to the people and institutions that make up the royal establishment

Not in English it isn't. I hesitate to correct an entry that seems to have so much baggage...
User:Wetman

If you are sure, you shouldn't hesitate. A problem is however to know if one really has reason to be sure. Too many of us with other mother-tongues than English believe too much in our expertice. Sadly.
--Ruhrjung 04:09, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] republic

Wikipedia makes it quite explicit in its statement defining a republic: "A republic is a form of government (and a state so governed) where a monarch is not the head of state." This is the generally accepted view of what a republic is. A monarchy cannot be a republic. A republic cannot be a monarchy.Dogface 16:59, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

How do explain the historical King of Scots and Abroath and other related documents? And, of course, the Papacy?

[edit] Renaissance Popes

I removed the line about Renaissance Popes passing the papal throne to their illegitimate children. I have two or three books on the popes and could not find any evidence of this at all. Certainly there were a few popes who had illegitimate children, but the nepotism most associate with the Renaissance papacy was always a pope favoring a nephew, and even then they usually did not succeed them immediately. Uncle would make nephew a cardinal, then one or two reigns later they could be elected pope. If someone can cite evidence of this being a regular occurance at any time, I will stand corrected. NguyenHue 09:51, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)NguyenHue

[edit] Improvement drive

The article on John III of Portugal is currently nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Support the article with your vote or comment on the nomination.--Fenice 09:13, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] this is terrible

there are only two paragraphs about the history of monarchy. that is feeble at best. please, if you know the history, write about it :) Kingturtle 00:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

History of the establishment of a monarchy? A few theories on this are out there, depending on where your coming from. Some date back to tribal chieftans. Usually the head of a tribe, or head of a Kin or Kinship, was the ruler (hence "King"). This is believed by some to evole into monarchy. Personally, I like Willie Hamilton's analysis, which relates the establishment of moanrchies to modern day mafiaso. Somebody came in, threatened to beat you up if you didn't give them protection money, and hence the monarchy was established. The monarch gave you protection as long as you were enslaved, and protected you (themselves really) from other mafiaso who were trying to horn in on their territory. Actually makes sense. Kevin Q.

The tribal chieftain theory is a better one. The latter notion better describes the evolution of the “noble” families the cluster about, support and eventually supplant developing monarchies. For the origins of monarchy you’re better of looking at theocracy. The evolution to a secular monarchy from a hereditary priesthood is something that can be seen time and again throughout history, even within contemporary tribal societies. --OzoneO 02:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fake entry in Current Monarchies

I deleted the entry on the fake country of Gemnoviag, listing the Prince of Gemnoviag, Jaden Rosencrans. Googling the country had no result, and only one real result on the name in an obituary.--Dalar 04:37, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Weird glitch

I'm not sure why, but most of the text disappeared from being visible in this revision, though if you go to edit the article, the text is still there.--Vercalos 08:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Small changes

I removed a line of vandalism that had been added to the second paragraph, as it was completely unrelated to the article and probably a practical joke. I'd also dispute the description of Tonga as a "constitutional monarchy". Technically, Tonga has a legislative assembly that limits the King's power, but as a majority of its members are appointed by the King, it isn't really effective as a check on constitutional power. See the article on Tonga for more details. Walton monarchist89 13:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Vandalism

I removed gibberish vandalism "fsadfdsaj;fdsalkjfsdlak;fsl'da;" from the "Unusual Examples" section of the page, and then had to edit my addition to the discussion because I forgot to sign it. Sorry, it's my first time leaving a comment. Acrylica 04:32, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

I added Image:Form of gov 2005.PNG as a map. Probably it would however be better to create a new map that would correspond to the list of countries further below in the article. --Donar Reiskoffer 08:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the map is somewhat inaccurate, as Canada's high arctic islands do not appear in blue. Last time i checked, all of Canada had a monarch.Legars 14:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King Juan Carlos

Also King of the Canary Islands, Ceuta and Melilla...

The Canary Islands, Ceuta and Melilla are legally part of Spain.--Menah the Great 14:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

I would really like an area of the page wich yould contain criticism of the monoarchy. Thank you.

[edit] monarchy = discrimination

there should be an area where it is pointed out that the system of monarchy effectively equates discrimination.

After all, in a monarchy, all people except the 'heir' and the 'monarch' are excluded from any theoretical chance of becoming head of state based solely on birth. It is a ludicrous thing to consider any hereditary title as something special. Hereditary titles by definition are worthless because no one is better than another based on who your parents happen to be.

Excluding people from the chance of becoming head of state on grounds of birth is discrimination and elite snobism. Down with all monarchies!

And yet who can rule in a typical republic or even your typical communist state is generally also decided on birth, family connection, money, place in society, etc. Basically exactly the same system as a monarchy, only it's not explicitly stated. What truly distinguishes monarchy as a political system is tradition and the intrinsic symbolism attached to the reigning position. Down with simplistic pejorative assertions. --OzoneO 02:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

This is fast becoming a general discussion about the topic of monarchy, which does not belong on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. (Although if anyone's interested, I agree strongly with OzoneO). Walton monarchist89 10:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Monarchy gives one a ruler selected by 'the hand of fate', - like winning the Birth Lottery. Can't get much more 'fair' than that, The complaintant above had a one in 6 billion chance, and lost. Those that complain about it are in one of two categories, they wish to have the 'power & prestige' and do not because they didn't win, OR the wish to have 'privacy, and choices' and do not because they did.

I take it that whoever wrote here first does not believe in reincarnation and also believes that someone born to a hereditary position must enjoy wealth and abuse power. Theoretically if you believe in a certain variation of reincarnation, being born to a hereditary title means that you lived your former life as a "good being" (not necessary a human or even a living being). If you abuse your power in this "life", you can end up as a "tormented (or challenged) being" (again, not necessary a human). The allure of abusing power (and living your next life as a "tormented") is greater when you are rich and powerful. It's not "good to be a king" but "higher you are, harder you fall". You could adopt this knowledge (I wouldn't say "wisdom" because perhaps the world is otherway around and "it's good to be evil") and live peacefully or not be peaceful. --Revth 08:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This is fast becoming a general discussion about the topic of monarchy. Remember that Wikipedia is not a forum for political debate. Please can all of these contributors try to restrict their contributions to matters relating to the article content. (Although if anyone's interested, I agree with OzoneO). Walton monarchist89 10:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry accidentally repeated my comment due to conflicting edits. But strangely enough, it's still relevant. Walton monarchist89 10:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

If a monarchy = discrimination what does a democracy (USA)=????? I see a great deal of views that are anti-monarchy! Why is bias allowed against traditional forms of government, that have functioned for eons? The article needs a section that gives examples of the positive aspects of a monarchy. Why is it that some articles have a bias (esp. the USA article) infavor for (USA) american ideals? If this monarchy article was writen like the USA article, I could only imagen the comments. In the Marie Antoinette talk, someone said the article seemned as if it was writen by her. It seems bias on wiki is well, you know.--Margrave1206 19:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Samoa

I know,this topic has been discused already,but seeing as Malietoa Tanumafili II is on the "longest reinging monarch category" I have to ask-IS he a monarch?If one could qualify him as a tribal monarch,I believe it to be possible.New Babylon

Seems obvious to me He inherited his position, so I would say he's clearly a monarch, regardless of the crazy local term you use for it. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odd linguistic structures

Is it just me or does the following sentence fragment read very strangely and seem to imply the exact opposite of the truth:

In an absolute monarchy, the Monarch has no power whatsoever over every aspect of the state 71.230.110.121 03:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• The page history proves that was not just bad grammar but blatant vandalism; fixed (but vandals often reoffend, so don't hesitate to revert again) Fastifex 05:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map is wrong.

Last time I checked Ellesmere island was part of Canada and thus should be blue. Zazaban 23:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I second that. I came here to bring it up but Zazaban beat me to it. Loomis 21:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm with you on this one. I suspect it has something to do with american claims over the high arctic.Legars 15:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Royal

The link from royal redirects here. In addition to the conventional meaning of the word royal, shouldn't we also add something about the French Presidential candidate Ségolène Royal?

I'm also strongly in favour of dabbing for Ségolène Royal. I'll do it. —Nightstallion (?) 21:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Afghanistan

Recently removed this country from the Current Monarchy list. Afghanistan hasn't been a monarchy since 1973. GoodDay 02:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)