Image talk:Motherhood and apple pie.jpg

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something is REALLY wrong with this picture....could some admin check plz? o_O 217.225.138.106 23:20, 20 November 2004 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything instrinsically wrong with a picture of pretty girls in bikinis, but it definitely isn't what was originally there. :) --Minority Report 00:31, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Propriety of the image

Using the flag as a tablecloth (as is pictured) is disrespectful, and therefore this image should be used sparingly, if at all. --JonathanFreed | Talk | 02:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The flag isn't been used as a tablecloth, they have just placed certain 'American' objects on it. Unless of course you eat baseballs? --Joey Roe ^talk/contrib 12:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

If you find yorself in front of this kind of presentation, please tell those around you that eating the baseball would be disrespectful. ;-) Bromskloss 11:04, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The way the flag is displayed in this image is improper and disrespectful. From the U.S. flag code §8(g): "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature." [1] —dm ^(talk) 00:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That flag code explicitly states that nothing should be drawn on the flag, it says nothing about placing an object on top of it. ♠ SG →Talk 23:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

SG, the flag code does not "explicitly" state what you say it does. (See 4 U.S.C. § 8.)

Also, please refer to the following:

• "§8(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it", but the flag in this image is touching something beneath it.
• "§8(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free", but the flag in this image appears to have been laid flat or horizontally across a table.
• "§8(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery", but the flag in this image is being used as a tablecloth, which is just as bad or worse then being used as apparel, bedding, or drapery.
• "§8(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way", but the flag in this image has food on it that could easily soil or damage it.

If anybody seriously thinks that this image complies with the flag code, please explain your reasoning. Thanks. JonathanFreed 17:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. So all the people you see with US falgs on their shorts and shirts as well those guys who put a US bumper stciker on the their F150-which is then covered in mud are actually breaking the flag code. It is really quite interesting that so many patriots (who use the falg as curtains for example) are actually degrading the flag. This is really quite funny. Is there any punishment for those sunday shoppers with the flag on their shirt? ;-) Signature^brendel 20:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The flag code is an opinion piece, not a law, and Wikipedia is not required to "comply" with it. --Random832(tc) 15:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so the "patriots" out there with flags on their shirts have nothing to fear (is that a good or a bad thing? ;-)) Anyways, you're right the code is not a law and do not have to comply. Personally I do not think that the images degrades the flag- the image is absolutely fine! Signature^brendel 18:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention - it's not clear that this image depicts a flag. I can clearly see no more than four stars and six stripes. And if the flag code did somehow (likely by passage of an amendment) acquire force of law, the liability would be on the photographer, since it "outlaws" the acts necessary to set up the photo, not distribution of the photo itself. I think wikipedia has other images that depict illegal acts. I don't think I need to say, I am not a lawyer --Random832(tc) 18:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying that this image or the act it depicts is illegal. We're saying its disrespectful and offensive to some people. Editors should be aware of this and should only use the image sparingly if at all. --dm ^(talk) 20:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It's far less disrespectful than the Muhammad cartoons. Perhaps people should grow thicker skins. --Golbez 22:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree and no one is rioting over this picture, but people should be careful how they use it. Just like the Muhammad cartoons shouldn't be used in the articles Islam or cartoon (at least not without proper context), this image shouldn't be in Cuisine of the United States or Americana. Unless the intent is to demonstrate how not to display the flag. --dm ^(talk) 22:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Nobody has yet argued that the depicted act is not improper and not disrespectful, except perhaps Random832, who attacked the premise that the image depicts a flag, but it is clear to me that it does. The references to flags on bumper stickers and flags on shirts and the Muhammad cartoons are mere digressions that have not addressed the question of whether it is disrespectful to use the flag as a tablecloth. Also, the United States Flag Code is indeed law. JonathanFreed 00:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I wasn't seriously saying that it's not a flag - though I do think it can't be positively proven to be one. Now, my argument that it's not improper and not disrespectful - I don't think the government gets to define what is and is not respectful towards the flag. And, let's be honest, it's not being used as a tablecloth. I would even concede that using it as a tablecloth would be disrespectful. But, let's be serious, it's not being used as a tablecloth. It's being used as an element of a still-life photograph. And, incidentally, I didn't say it wasn't in the US Code. I was saying that by a reasonable definition, a portion of the Code that has been overturned by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional is not part of the law of the land. --Random832(tc) 01:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactely, this picture is not disrespecful. It portaits the flag in a dignified manner as a "an element of a still-life photograph." The flag is also not strung flat over the background (as a table cloth would be). Of course whether or not something is disrespectful in a non-factual issue, but be reasonable- this picture is not degrading the flag. Signature^brendel 19:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess disrespectful is in the eye of the beholder. All I'm saying is that I, and some others, feel that this picture is disrespectful. How is this unreasonable? Draping a flag across a table and putting a pie on it clearly violates the flag code. Yes, Congress cannot require you or anyone else to display the flag in a particular way, but wouldn't you agree that the flag code represents how many feel the flag should be treated? You find nothing wrong with the image as is your right. Can't you recognize that others don't see it as innocuous? --dm ^(talk) 04:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Given that the flag code was passed in 1942, the "many" who feel the flag should only be treated in the manner described in flag code and that any other treatment is disrespectful are likely mostly gone. You can't claim that a WWII-era law represents present-day consensus. --Random832(tc) 14:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. minor point - the pie is not on the flag, it is in a pan; the pan is on the flag. And, since pie is messy (unpeeled apples are not messy), I think this does actually make a difference as to whether this would be disrespectful. --Random832(tc) 21:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As for the code, on a side note, where it states "The flag should never touch anything beneath it" and "The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally", does that mean it's use to drape coffins is disrespectful? As for using the image, just because some people would think a picture is disrespectful is no reason not to use it. Wiki isn't censored. Iorek85 08:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is a side note, but covering a casket with the flag is not disrespectful, because 4 U.S.C. § 8 must be read in the context of 4 U.S.C. § 7(n) ("[w]hen the flag is used to cover a casket..."). JonathanFreed 19:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, it looks like we got ourselves a nice disagreement here. Some, including myself (and I beleive this to be the majority) feel that the picture is not disrespectful, others such as dm do feel it is disrespectful. I'm going to be honest here, I have difficulty seeing how one could see this picture as disrespectful- but that's often a part of having different view-points on a non-factual matter. How about we make an RfC on the issue and get more editors and more opinions? It seems to me as the best way to resolve the issue of whether or not this picture is acceptable for wide-spread use. Signature^brendel 18:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The picture is disrespectful and no other disrespectful image would be tolerated, so don't start making exceptions for things that you personally don't care about but that others do.

{The picture doesn't appear to be disrespectful and it seems neither does the US government as they have it on one of their websites.Personally I believe that the picture represents the American flag in a very good light. However, I do think that we should change it if some people believe that it is disrespectful. Their are probably other pictures someone can find to represent american cultural icons.}(My part is in the brackets)SageAndroid 05:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The patriots who 'wear' the flag on t-shirts and shots etc. are not wearing the flag. They are wearing pictures of the flag. For example, a person who wears a picture of an apple is not wearing an apple. Ps i am 13 yrs old81.179.241.46 20:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC) dr PPS. I am not taking sides, am merely pointing out facts :)81.179.241.46 20:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)dr

I do not find the image disrespectful to the flag. It is a work of art. If we are to remove every image that might be deemed offensive to some, I suggest starting with the Iran Hostage Crisis. omg ShiftPlusOne 23:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)