Talk:Names given to the Spanish language

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The following debate was originally on the "Castilian" talk page

in Spain the language is called castilian castellano (but the term spanish español is understood).

Some communites don't have castilian as the historic language, but as the state language.

Not all countries in America use 'castilian' castellano

the RAE does not set the standards, but it works with other academic institutions

Thewikipedian 23 Mar 2004

Some of what you say is true, some is not. I have turned the Castilian stub into a long article which fully clarifies the use of the two terms. — Chameleon 10:49, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

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I think than the article on Español vs. Castellano should be in Spanish Language, because Castilian in English normally means "The Spanish dialect of Castile". An intermediate solution would be creating a special article, referenced both in Spanish language and in Castilian. Pablo.cl 03:49, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

I fully understand why you feel the article should go under Spanish language rather than Castilian. However, here is why I did not do so:

• There was already a stub article with some minimal content on the term; and, if I had wanted to transfer the material to Spanish language and turn Castilian into a redirect, I would have had to list the latter page on Votes for Deletion. I felt this would have then failed, because I doubt very much that there would be a consensus to delete this page on VfD.
• Spanish language is already very long, and I had a lot to say on the matter. If I'd included it in that article, people would quite rightly have complained I was taking over the entire article with one relatively trivial subsection, and I would have risked them editing it down. I felt a link to a separate article where I could go into the subject in great depth was the best solution.
• To a great extent, it is useless to talk about how 'the term "Castilian" is used in English', because the fact is that the vast majority of English speakers have never heard this term, and certainly are not aware of the facts I presented in my article (I say 'I' because I wrote it from scratch, not because I claim ownership). So, rather than worrying about how a minority of people use the word, I decided to create this article that gives in-depth information on the implications of the two terms in the Spanish-speaking world, and therefore gives English-speakers the knowledge they need to decide for themselves how to use the two terms in English.
  
  How does this relate to the choice of location for the article? Well, it means that I believe most people who type Castilian into the search box are not quite sure what the term means, or what nuances exist between it and the term 'Spanish', and are consulting the article because they want to find out. Those who are simply looking for information on the Spanish language will almost certainly type in "Spanish" and find the relevant article. I believe that if we renamed the article Differences in meaning and usage between 'Spanish' and 'Castilian', it might be more explicit, but it would be less 'findable', and less useful. Don't you think?

— Chameleon 10:49, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

You are very eloquent, now I agree with you.

However:

• You didn't say why a special article isn't a good idea.
• Maybe the castellano/español issue is clouding the Castilian article.

Pablo.cl 22:50, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think I did explain why I thought a special article (with a name such as 'Differences in meaning and usage between "Spanish" and "Castilian"') would be less advisable than the status quo. I'm not sure what you mean by 'clouding the article'. As I see it, linguistically (though not politically, of course) 'Castilian' is a synonym of 'Spanish', with certain nuances. General discussion of the language known as Spanish or Castilian is in the Spanish language article, so the only raison d'être for the Castilian article is to explain the use of the term.

OK, OK. If you insist, I'll create that special page for you. It doesn't make much difference to me — it just seemed simpler to leave things as they were.

I'm going to create that page now. It will mean that people looking for info on the term 'Castilian' are going to do one more click, but I don't suppose it matters that much. — Chameleon 23:43, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

End of debate originally on the "Castilian" talk page

[edit] THE CASTILIAN LANGUAGE

Hello. First of all I have to tell you that I'm a professional liguistic and polyglot (Castilian, English, Tuscan, Portuguese, Russian, Arabic and Japanese) and I live in Buenos Aires City, Argentina.

The name of the official language of Spain, is Castilian castellano. This language was born in Castile, when Spain didn't even exist as a country. This language, Castilian (which wasn't a dialect) spread all across the territories that NOW form Spain.

All the people started to speak it, and when the Kingdom Of Spain was unificated, it was picked out as the official language of Spain. There are four recognized languages in Spain, which are Castilian, Catalan, Galician and Euskera. And each language has its own name.

All of them are official, but only Catalan, Galician and Euskera, in their respectives authonomous communities.

The Castilian Language was brought from Spain, to the American Continent by Christopher Colombus, spreading it out all over America.

It says that Castilian is the "historical" name, but that is a big big big mistake, because Castilian is the current name of the language.

Currently, in 2005, in all of our Constitutions, in Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Uruguay, Venezuela, El Salvador, Peru, Paraguay, Spain, etc. The language is Castilian castellano. That is what the Law says and also, the media, the church, the books, the dictionaries, etc.

The term 'Spanish' is just an adjective for the language. Castilian, is Spanish, but... not because its name is Spanish, but because it is a Spanish Language, among the four spoken in Spain.

It cannot be called 'Spanish' because there are three (3) more Spanish Languages. Castilian is as Spanish as Catalan, and Galician is as Spanish as Euskera.

In English, you always make a mistake by calling my language as Spanish. This is because you were taught wrongly at School, and that's the term you heard since you were very very little kids, to refer the Castilian Language.

You were also taught and believe that Castilian is the Spanish Language as spoken in Castile, but that is the biggest mistake in the whole word. The Language spoken in Castile, is Castilian, and it is the same language, spoken in the rest of Spain (even in the communities where Castilian is the second language).

You were also taught that Castilian is a dialect of Spanish spoken in Castile. Another mistake. The Castilian Language is the same, spoken in Spain and in all the countries that once Spain colonized.

In English, when you refer to the Castilian spoken in Spain you say "Castilian Spanish" (as it was Spanish with the Castilian Pronounciation) but that is wrong as well. Because the adjective must be Spanish for the language, ant not Castilian.

I mean, when you want to refer to my native language as spoken in Spain, it must be "Spanish Castilian" (because it is the Castilian Language as Spoken in Spain) and when you want to refer to what we speak in America, it is , depending the country, Argentine Castilian, Mexican Castilian, Cuban Castilian, etc. Even, when you speak about the language as spoken in Andalucía, it is Andalusian Castilian, and not Andalusian Spanish, and if spoken in Canary Islands (Where they don't pronounce the "C" and the "Z" as the English "TH", it is Canarian Castilian.

The Castilian Language is the same, of course, only that depending on the country it has different words, slangs, and idioms. But it's always the same.

To say Spanish to refer Castilian, sounds as illogical as calling British, the English Language. Because, English is the official Language of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, but there are also other languages there. And they are also British.

So, to say Castilian Spanish, is the same as saying "English British". When it is "Spanish Castilian" and "British English".

So, it's time to buclke down to use this term "Castilian" to refer to the official language of Spain and the countries in America, instead of the wrong word 'Spanish'.

I hope you have understood the real history of the language, as well as its real name, and the way it oughts to be called. I say this because there are lots of documents around the internet, and they are all wrong!!! I just don't know where did they get the information from.

It was a pleasure to explain you all about the Castilian Language.

Alvaro Palmieri.

This doesn't make sense. Even within England, we have had different languages, but we still call it "English". It is normal for Spanish to be called "Spanish" in English. In Spanish, it is accepted that the language has two names. That's the end of it. Chamaeleon 11:18, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense to me too. And I was born in Spain, learnt that "Spanish" español term is above the "regional" variances. When we say Castilian castellano we (ok, me) mean "the Castilian variation of Spanish", as "Andalusian" is "the Spanish language spoken in Andalusia", etc. Anyway, he can talk about America, but I think I know my country better than him --80.103.134.9 17:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the phrase a very large, very vocal minority in Spain. because its meaning is completely ambiguous and adds nothing to the sentence it belonged to.

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Can someone place something to the effect that Castillian is, among linguistic and other circles, the proper name for the language we anglophones call "Spanish"? I think this is warranted because in many parts in Latin American and Spain, Castillian is called Castillian castellano, Catalán is called Catalán, Galician is called Galician gallego, etc.

Pozole 15:23, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Not really. In Latin America, the language (let's not name it) is called español or castellano, not Spanish or Castilian. English is English and Spanish is Spanish. Discussing this with appeals to history is akin to arguing against the use of the word atom because the original Greek means "indivisible". Things get labeled arbitrarily or "wrongly" all the time. The name of this language in English is Spanish. I mean, really, get over it. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 18:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "An Uruguayan"

There is currently a content conflict over the use of "a Uruguayan" vs. "an Uruguayan" with the user User:Reisio. I think this is silly, the correct English grammar is "a Uruguayan", in English the "oo" sound in Uruguayan doesn't exist like it does in the Spanish variation of the word "Uruguayo". Please stop reverting back to "an Uruguayan", it is incorrect.--Jersey Devil 03:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, the dictionary lists both pronunciations, yoo-ruh and ooroo, as acceptable pronunciations. However, the most common one is by far the more-English pronunciation of the word and because most English-speakers are more likely to say "a Uruguayan" that should be used. Also, I ask everyone to be mindful of the three-revert rule since. Thanks, guys, hopefully we can put this minor issue to rest. :-) --Chris S. 03:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)