Image talk:Nasrallah and khamenei.jpg

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Contents 1 Licensing Concerns 2 Wrong comparison 3 WP:V applies 4 Arbitration Pending 5 MEHR News 6 Wikipedia's Stance 7 Nasrallah and benefactor.jpg

[edit] Licensing Concerns

This picture is not copy righted and if you live in Iran (as I do) this pic is on walls, papers etc. which shows the allegiance of Hezbollah leader to Ayatollah Khamenei. --Kaaveh 10:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

All pictures are copyrighted unless you can prove they are either in the public domain or released under a free license. Without information on the photographer or his employer, this image must be treated as a copyright violation. User:Angr 10:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The date of the picture on Iranian calender is 11/ 05/ 1384. and is released by the office of Ayatollah Khamenei of Iran. Here is also another pic that was taken in the meeting from the official website of Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khameni. http://www.khamenei.ir/FA/News/detail.jsp?id=840511A --Kaaveh 10:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That the image is on the internet does not release its copyright. If you believe the photo is in the public domain, find a source stating that, and there is no problem. Bertilvidet 11:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

MEHR News Agency, who published this picture at the first place states "امانت داری و اخلاق مداری استفاده از اين خبر فقط با ذکر منبع " خبرگزاری مهر " مجاز می باشد." which means "Use of this photos is allowed IF the name of the MEHR news agency is stated."

I tagged the image accordingly. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk)(Review me) 08:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

See previous discussion of Iranian copyright at Image talk:Ahmadinejad-and-Nasrallah.jpg. KWH 03:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

1. Archiving

   1. Some news agencies do not properly archive their reports. They just publish their news and let the material expire.
   2. Others have started implementing proper archiving techniques just recently. Even the archives of a highly reputable news agency like BBC news do not extend to dates prior to November 1997.[1]
   3. Some organizations archive their news selectively. Iranian Students' News Agency may fall into this category.

1. Copyright symbol

   1. Most news organizations have a clear copyright: Copyright © 2006 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. or This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License..
   2. Others like http://www.metransparent.com/texts/jihad_msouti_pains_of_democracy.htm do not have the circle C (©) or any copyright statement that explains the limitations for usage of their reports.

   Contacting Wikipedia

   1. Wikipedia's copyright department can always be contacted if there were an infringement.--13:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong comparison

• That image of Nasrallah and Ahamdinejad didn't have a URL source, it was watermarked, and came from a different news entity.--04:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:V applies

Neither source, author or license is verifiable, thus they don't qualify. The MEHR NEWS permission in alleged, no link to the imprint page or other page proving the claim is given. Even if provided, it only would apply if the other information were present. --tickle me 10:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, it is alleged that this photo was taken by Sajjad Safari. Apparently, Safari is a freelance who very often sells his photos to both the AP and Mehr News.[2] The question of Iranian copyright may not apply at all. KWH 01:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The photograph in question comes from Mehr news. Second, AP is giving attribution for the unrelated photo at http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20060814_iranian_leader_starts_blog/.

I don't know of a statement that says all media produced by Safari, an employee of Mehr News, or photographs on the Persian version of Mehr News are sold to AP and no one should use them.--02:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Patchouli (talk • contribs) .

Patchouli - please add your name to your signature. The numerous examples in the Google search show that Safari apparently sells his works to a worldwide audience and thus obviously retains copyright. Even if Wikipedia's stance were not to respect the copyright of Iran and other non-Berne signatories, deference must be given to Safari's right to choose to only license his photographs to the AP or MEHR. Unless you can produce a license or statement showing that Safari disclaims copyright on his works - we have no reason to assume he does. In addition, the "free use with attribution" statement on the Persian articles at MEHR News are clearly limited in nature - it does not appear on the English language pages, where there is a clear copyright statement.

The assertion that anything remotely connected to Iran disclaims copyright, or that it is considered 'fair game' by Wikipedia is incorrect, especially when Jimbo Wales has specifically said that we should generally respect Iranian copyright law as best we can, and nothing in this instance compels us not to. [3] KWH 16:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

1. "Special rules govern the ownership and duration of copyrights by employees who create a work in the normal course of their job. Under these rules, the copyright belongs to the employer and lasts 95 years from publication..."

Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Consequently, Mehr most likely owns the copyright of its employee. And that employer only wants attribution.

1. "Contracts for sales of pictures and news items

IRNA has signed cataracts for the sale of its news photos and information to major international news agencies. These include Reuters, AP, DPA, BBC..." http://www.irna.ir/en/content/view/menu-240/id-24/lm-1/ls-2/ Mehr News Agency has no such statement nor does its employee.

1. Photo in question

One cannot extrapolate a rubric for all photos produced by Mehr in all languages. Let us focus on this particular photo from the Persian version whence the uploader stated it comes from.

1. Fair use

"the law permits the use of portions of copyrighted works for such purposes as criticism, comment, teaching, and research, even without permission of the copyright owner." Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Here, there is a compelling interest in deference to research and teaching of history to utilize Image:Nasrallah and khamenei.jpg under {{fairusein}}. However, I even object to fair use and prefer {{Attribution}}.--Patchouli 16:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

We don't even have a link that suggests what rights Safari or MEHR News disclaim on this particular photo. I personally think that {{fairusein}} might be appropriate if a proper fair use rationale is written, and if we can find reasonable proof of the image source.

I think that the claim of "free use with attribution" needs to be held to a higher standard in this instance; get MEHR to email proof of the source and license for the photo (preferably in English) to the Wikipedia Foundation per WP:COPYREQ. The reason why is that MEHR's Persian-language articles might give this license for purposes of propaganda within Iran, or because of some unknown provision of Iranian copyright law. Otherwise, why have they not seen fit to put the same license on their English language pages?

As it is, we would be expecting a downstream user of Wikipedia material to accept the idea that they can legally reuse this copyrighted material based on a foreign-language license on a webpage that no longer exists. (and we don't even have the URL of the page when it did exist.)

It is also suggested that you read Wikipedia:Copyrights and Wikipedia:Fair use in depth to understand how fair use of copyrighted work is practiced on Wikipedia. It is not the same as Encarta's interpretation or practice. KWH 17:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Mehr has not archived this photograph.

Insofar as fair use is concerned, this photo already has oodles of justifications and explanations to become a qualified image under fair use.--Patchouli 22:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

All this debate has become moot. I found a verifiable source and adapted the tag to reflect the licensing.--Patchouli 22:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

So now you are saying that IPC holds the copyright? KWH 22:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Right on the money. I don't know about Mehr and I never said it was the copyright holder. I just took the word of others who initiated this discussion.--Patchouli 23:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

So be it, but that source and validity of that license is disputed. Don't remove the PUIDisputed tag. The admin who closes the discussion at WP:PUI can judge the validity of the claim. KWH 23:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration Pending

I hereby inform all parties that I have referred this picture to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration.--11:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration is a last resort, I have said as much in my comment there. I think you need to start discussig this here first before any dispute resolution is needed. Then try medcab at the very first. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk)(Review me) 11:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• To those who wish to apply policies that are not applicable, nothing qualifies as fair use and even if Lawrence Lessig dropped by to state that political media easily qualify as fair use, they would not be swayed.--13:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MEHR News

The MEHR News permission text cited and translated above only appears on virtually all of MEHR's Persian articles[4], not on the English articles.[5] Also, it doesn't appear to be on their Arabic or Urdu articles, but I couldn't say for sure. I am inclined to think that this means the license is limited to Iran only? KWH 01:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe the picture was taken from the Persian version.--01:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia's Stance

Verifiability, not truth states, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is thus verifiability, not truth."--Patchouli 23:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nasrallah and benefactor.jpg

It's unwarranted to evade issues here. --tickle me 15:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)