Talk:National Football League

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Archives
Archive 1

Contents 1 Recent clean up 2 Holy size! 3 Unreferenced statements and/or sections 4 Inaccuracies 5 Pre-1970 6 NFL Theme Songs 7 Vandalized 8 List of NFL-Presidents 9 Most NFL Championships 10 NFL Expansion Article 11 Team helmets 12 Number of Pro Football and Super Bowl Championships 13 Won/Lost Records 14 the following section was moved here from the article and is in need of referencing 14.1 Black Players 15 Clean-up

[edit] Recent clean up

I cleaned up some sections and tagged others for NPOV clean-up and Expansion. Sections affected include:

• Season Structure section: I expanded and added graphics for this section, including a graphic to explain the scheduling rubric. I also added a bunch of references. A playoff history section would be mucho bueno, and is next on my to-do list, though anyone else can jump in and fix it.
• TV and Radio sections: Moved and expanded these somewhat (TV a lot more than radio). I extensively referenced them and tried to clean up the language. Several sections belonging in this part were culled from other parts of the article (especially the Season Structure section, where they didn't really belong)

moved this section to relevent page (see below) --Jayron32 04:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Uniform Numbers section: renamed, expanded, referenced, and copyedited this section. Cut some unnecessary trivia, though a reference for the Keyshawn and Bosworth uniform number controversy is probably needed soon, or this statement will have to be cut.

Future clean up is needed:

• Race section: Needs serious NPOV cleanup and MAJOR references. Controversial subjects need VERY heavy references. The world should be abundant on these, since the issue is in the news all the time. ALso, I would not object to a creation of a new article and the paring down of this section to a paragraph or two with a redirect to the new article.

moved to talk page as POV. Section does not (as written now) belong in the article.--Jayron32 05:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Salary section: Needs references. Makes some assertions of fact that require backing up.

Completely rewritten and referenced. --Jayron32 05:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Everywhere else: References, references, references. If we are to return this to good (and maybe featured) status, we need to get good references, and clean up the writing in all parts to be more consistant.

Will be back soon to continue working on this article. --Jayron32 06:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Expanded playoff section. My next goal is the Race section. It shouldn't be too hard, what with all of the press the issue gets. I will provided copious refs and try to make it more NPOV. --Jayron32 03:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

these sections have been moved to other articles --Jayron32 04:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up and referenced the tie-breaker section. Next up is the salary section I think (OK, I am avoiding the race section. But I am not at all convinced that it should stay. I will probably end up getting to that one last. Ho-hum.) --Jayron32 01:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This section has been moved to the playoff article. --Jayron32 04:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Salary section is started. I still want to make the whole section more coherant. I have created an new umbrella section (Player compensation and contracts) to handle all of the stuff on the CBA, Salaries, Salary Cap, Draft, and Free Agency. I haven't gotten to cleaning up the old writing yet, but the new stuff makes an effective introduction. Also, see below about reducing this article. The guy who posted the message below has some good ideas. --Jayron32 18:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

New parent section for this and other related info (Player contracts and compensation) has been updated. IDEA: Maybe move to new article, since it has gotten bigger? We'll see if that is necessary with the other reductions we have done. --Jayron32 04:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Salary section finished. Also, I moved the entire playoff section (as requested below) to the main NFL Playoffs article. Still left to do:

• The Draft (reference)
• Free Agency (reference)
• History (Reference and expand FIRST, then move to the NFL History article WHEN FINISHED like was done with the Playoffs section) --Jayron32 05:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Ideas for what to do next to both clean up and reduce the size of this article:

• History section still needs work (see above)
• Remove the teams/stadiums/metro area chart to a new article: List of current NFL Franchises. Will reduce largely redundant information already found in the {{nfl}} template, and greatly reduce the size of the article. Comments anyone???
• Reorganize to a more logical organization. Not sure what this is, but it aint great right now.--Jayron32 04:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The section on player contracts needs an update. It says that the current CBA will expire after the end of the 2006 season. I believe it was at the end of the 2005 season (which in fact is in 2006) it expired. The Free Agency period in 2006 was delayed because of the negotiations before a new agreement was reached. The new agreement also have some new rules about sharing money between big market teams and small market teams.

[edit] Holy size!

First of all, thank you User:Jayron32 for all your clean-up contributions to the article. I just noticed that this article is absolutely huge. This page is 78 kilobytes long, which WP:SIZE recommends a 32 KB page and 12-15 pages printed (it's 32 right now). I think some sections could be possibly split. Possible sections that need the bulk trim could possibly be;

1. Playoffs- it's longer than the length of the NFL Playoffs article. Should the tie-breaking rules be included, or left in the NFL Playoff article?
2. Racial policies- should it even be there at all? gone until referenced
3. Rules named after players- could this be moved to NFL Lore? done
4. History- Could this deserve it's own article? Not that it is too long, it's just that it seems it could be expanded a bit more given the extensive history of the NFL.

Just throwing some ideas out there, I know almost every pro-sports page is long (NHL, MLB, NASCAR), just wondering if this page should be split up a bit, or timmed--aviper2k7 05:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• • reply Thanks for the input. I was thinking that the article WAS much too long. My thought was to improve first and split later. My recent edits seem to have generated some interest in improving the article quite a bit, and I would like to see it continue. Its easier to keep improving all of this information in a central place. Once the writing and references are up to snuff, we can consider forking or moving some of this information to more relevant articles. I think the NFL article needs all of these sections, but we can move the bulk of the writing to the derivative articles and use the {{main}} or {{details}} tags to redirect for further info. Sound good? --Jayron32 18:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking. A brief, brief summary would be nice, with extended details in the split article. Much like many of the NFL teams have separate team history pages and a brief summary of their history.--aviper2k7 22:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I moved the playoffs section already. Article is down to about 54 kb. Getting better. Once we improve and move the history section, it should be even better. --Jayron32 05:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe such sections as television and radio are important for the total detail of the NFL, besides mentioning the NFL Network which is run by the league. Also, the players and coaches headers can be removed, with the links moved entirely to "See Also," right? Bmitchelf 19:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

reply good idea. I will get on moving it to the NFL on TV article. A few sentances should suffice. --Jayron32 16:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. I moved it to the main NFL on TV article, and reduced this to a summary. We should avoid adding to this article too much, and any major details should be added to the main NFL on Television article. Though, if anyone wishes to copyedit my writing to make it better and more succinct, feel free. --Jayron32 17:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The section about scheduling is VERY long right now. It's very interesting, but it's also too much detail for the main article in a project of this size. I'm going to look into moving most of the scheduling info into a sub-article and leaving a condensed version (maybe two paragraphs) on the main page.Adam613 20:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I was bold and made this update. I'm not quite sure how I feel about how sparse the season structure section is now. I'll probably add a bit of detail back in, or someone else can if they want.Adam613 21:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I was bold myself, and put some of it back in. I think a happy medium has been achieved. Last step is the history section rewrite. --Jayron32 22:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you shouldn't just delete the whole page. If you are going to split a section always leave a summary. I'm not even sure if they really needed a split. I think the history should once it gets more information, but most the regular season information is vital to the article. You can't even tell there is a separate article right now. Use {{Main:Article}} for that. The playoff summary is completely gone, which I thought did an excelent job of summarizing the main NFL Playoffs article. The Exhibition Season really wasn't long enough and notable enough to be split, and should be noted in the article.

I applaud your boldness, but I feel that it wasn't necessarily the right thing to do. The article is still a bit long, but I feel that the history section is the thing that needed splitting (and expanding) before anything else. In time the regular season will eventually need splitting. I'm sure many people feel right now should be the time. That's fine with me, but you should remember to do it the right way. Many people on Wikipedia call it "trimming the fat", which is what you should do to the section after you split it, not erase it completely. That's my two cents. I'm going to revert it to the original version, and you can "trim the fat" from there if you want off the regular season and link to the NFL regular season page. Refer to the NFL playoff page to how they summarized it.--aviper2k7 22:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that the history section needs work, but it's not something I know a lot about, so I didn't want to mess with it. And I agree that the scheduling looks better now than when I left it (Thanks Jayron!).Adam613 23:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha, in the middle of my reply Jayron32 does exactly what I'm talking about. I agree with what Jayron did. --aviper2k7 22:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced statements and/or sections

Moved here for your perusal and editing. If you find references to any of these parts, move them back to the main article. Until and unless you can do so, please leave them here until we can find VERIFIABLE, RELIABLE SOURCES to these statements. Also, if you find any other information added to the article that you think MIGHT be useful to it, but has not yet been referenced, please move it here.

[edit] Inaccuracies

Before 2002, an NFC team didn't play an "entire" AFC division each year; it would play four of the five (or six, as in the case of the AFC Central 1999-2001) teams in a division each year. Therefore, an NFC team wasn't guaranteed to play every AFC franchise over the course of three years. Also, the old "fifth place schedule" (pre-1995 when there were only two fifth place teams in each conference) dictated that any team that finished fifth in its division the previous year would not play a particular division in the other conference but rather the two fifth place teams from the other conference. For example, the Denver Broncos finished fifth in the AFC West in 1990. In 1991, while the other four teams in the AFC West played the NFC West, the Broncos played only the Minnesota Vikings (fifth place in the NFC Central in 1990) and the Phoenix Cardinals (fifth place in the NFC East in 1990) from the NFC in 1991. In other words, the Broncos did not play a single team from the NFC West (excluding their Super Bowl game against the 49ers) between 1988 and 1994.Politician818 09:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• I will go ahead and fix this if you like. In the future, you can feel free to Be Bold and fix any problems you find yourself. Don't feel the need to ask permission. You are encouraged to make changes, and THEN justify such changes on the talk page. If others disagree, they will be changed back and we can hammer it out then. Happy editing! --Jayron32 16:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

What about the championships won by Buffalo?? None?

[edit] Pre-1970

• What were the NFL teams prior to the American FL joing? 67.41.213.180 22:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Browns, Colts, Steelers, and every team currently in the NFC except for the Seahawks, Bucs, and PanthersPolitician818 05:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NFL Theme Songs

• Does anyone know the jingles used at the beginning of NFL broadcasts over time? Here's some hints:
  • 1998-2003 CBS: All I remember is it had a big CBS eye and the NFL Shield landed on its pupil at the end.
    • 2001-present Fox: Blue grids and stuff with a dark blue oval. Lasers turn it into the Fox Sports logo, and shortly after, a grid turns it into the NFL logo. Originally had the 1998-2003 NFL jingle, then used the current one from 2003-present.
      • 2006-present NBC: Extreme close-ups of the NBC Sports logo are shown, and it zooms into place on a gray background. Then these... things reveal the NFL logo. *Anyone know what I'm talking about?? WizardDuck 20:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This would be good information to add to the article NFL on Television if you can find references to verify it. We are trying to keep this article's size down so as to conform to wikipedia's standards on size. --Jayron32 17:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• Refs: Memory for CBS (anyone who has old NFL on CBS tapes from up until they started using Posthumus Zone might find this), Fox uses theirs on Sunday afternoon and Thanksgiving, and NBC's appears on Sunday Night Football. Unfortunately I do not have access to the 1998 CBS tag, but I do have videos of the current CBS, Fox & NBC tags (I may upload them). WizardDuck 23:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Brand New: Nov. 23-2006-present NFL Net: It starts with extreme close-ups of the NFL logo. When it gets to the stars and football, however, they lift off, and the rest of the shield (except for the "NFL" script) falls down, as the red parts of the letters sink down (within their own outlines) and the screen quickly cuts to the text emerging from the NFL Network "football" logo, and five stars zoom out, completing the logo. At the end, the glow dies down until only the outline is visible. WizardDuck 00:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

• Just minutes ago, I uploaded the NBC Sports logo from Sunday Night Football (just a still picture) onto the NBC Sports article. It may give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Hopefully someone finds this and replies. WizardDuck 18:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I already knew what you were talking about, but I see.++aviper2k7++ 21:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalized

Hey! Someone has vandalized the article, look in the infoboxes under "Teams". Someone who knows something about american football (I don't) please restore it!Heiz 16:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

This article is vandalized a lot. Just revert edits made by vandals instead of trying to hand pick them out. To do this, click history, then the date of the last good version. Then click edit this page, go to the bottom and give a revert summary and click save page. That's what I always do, it works pretty good. Here, someone made good edits on top of the vandalized edits, in that case just revert to a good version and re-add the good edits by hand by looking in the history. Not a big deal--aviper2k7 17:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of NFL-Presidents

Who was Jordan Schwartz? Wasn't Jim Thorpe the frist NFL-President until Joe Carr took over?

[edit] Most NFL Championships

Is this table really necessary here? It just makes the page longer unnecessarily. The table is already on the "more information" page, History of NFL Championships, and "most" does not mean that all should be included. Instead, the top five or so can be listed along with those teams who are defunct winners and current teams that have never won; this can be listed in a paragraph rather than a table, in an effort to shorten the entire article. bmitchelf•T•F 22:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this page is necessary, but I think a distinction should be made here between NFL Championships and specifically Superbowl Championships, as this is the more common and popular measuring stick in gauging NFL franchises. By this count, San Francisco and Dallas would be tied for first, with five apiece. mass147 21:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

This distinction is made on the history page, on a bigger table, which makes it even more appropriate to link to that article, with just a blurb here. bmitchelf•T•F 05:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

More importantly, the table is WRONG. The Jets and Chiefs were never NFL champions. The 1968 and 1969 NFL champions were the Colts and Vikings, respectively. The Jets and Chiefs were AFL champions, who won the super bowl, but the super bowl, prior to 1970, did NOT determine the NFL champion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.18.201.182 (talk) 01:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

I think that table is worthless, simply because theres a difference between NFL Championships and Super Bowls. You can have them all together on one table claiming that some of these teams have won a "championship". The NFL Championship and the Super Bowl are two totally different events/championships. you cannot put them together its like putting salt in your coffee insted of sugar. IMURDAD 03:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NFL Expansion Article

I think that there should be a specific section on the history of the NFL's expansion, maybe leading to a separate article. Unschool 18:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Team helmets

How can the team helmets not pass FU? It's an article on the NFL and the teams are the NFL.Sumoeagle179 18:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of Pro Football and Super Bowl Championships

Can someone please fix and freeze this section. The table is vandalized every once in a while. Admins, please, lock it after repair. TRakowski 17:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Clean up the columns?

I think the table could be cleaned up a bit, and also keep the spirit of breaking up the first 4 Super Bowls as non-NFL championships, but keep the table cleaner since there's only 3 teams that fall into that category...

For example....

Team	League Championships	Winning years
Green Bay Packers	12	NFL: 1929, 1930, 1931, 1936, 1939, 1944, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1996 AFL-NFL World Championships: 1966, 1967

And it was originally called "AFL-NFL World Championship" ...just a thought, and my 0.02....Doctorindy 15:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Where are the Cincinnati Bengals on this list? 192.138.70.245 06:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Won/Lost Records

The all-time won/lost records for several teams appear to be wildly out of sync with what's accurate. I am assuming this resource is accurate (http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/history/W-L%20-%20Start%20of%202006.pdf) since it is done by the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Our numbers are way off. San Francisco, for example, has almost 40 fewer wins through this past season as that resource says they had before this past season. I think this needs to be addressed.

[edit] the following section was moved here from the article and is in need of referencing

Below is a section moved from the talk page. It is a far better section on racial issues in the NFL than has ever appeared in this article. However, references are needed, and a more thorough an neutral treatment needs to be given to assure that this section serves to improve the article to Good Article and eventual;ly Featured status. I would have no objection if this section were moved back AFTER REFERENCES ARE ADDED TO IT. If the original author has references, but is uncertain of the techinical aspects of citing sources at wikipedia, I would be glad to help as needed. --Jayron32 18:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black Players

A few black people played, and even starred for professional football teams in the American Professional Football Association and other early leagues as well as the APFA's successor, the NFL. But shortly after the entry of George Preston Marshall to the league in 1932 as owner of the Boston Braves/Washington Redskins franchise, black players disappeared from NFL rosters. In the mid-1940s, following the lead of the All-America Football Conference, a few NFL teams signed black people as individuals, but there were no black people included in the NFL college draft until 1949. Though five black players were on the draft list, the first of those to actually play NFL football was Wally Triplett, a halfback from Penn State who played for the Detroit Lions and the Chicago Bears. In those years, black players who did manage to make NFL rosters were subject to unwritten but stringent "quotas" for the number of black players on a team and the positions that could be filled by black people. At that time, there were no black quarterbacks, centers, or middle linebackers in the NFL. One source of talent that had been traditionally ignored by the NFL was small, historically black colleges.

The American Football League, in contrast, actively recruited from the black colleges, and used black players at positions not permitted to them in the NFL. For example, in 1963, the AFL's Kansas City Chiefs became the first team in pro football history to use the first overall pick of a draft on a player from a small black college – defensive tackle Buck Buchanan of Grambling State, while the NFL's New York Giants relegated Buchanan to their 19th round pick that year (Buchanan was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1990). The effect was cumulative, and more and more outstanding black players opted for the AFL, recognizing their chances to play were greater there. Willie Lanier (also destined for the Hall of Fame), for example, became pro football's first black middle linebacker with the AFL's Kansas City Chiefs; Marlin Briscoe became the first modern starting black quarterback with the AFL's Denver Broncos, etc. Thus, the expansion of the role of black people not only as players but as assistants, and finally head coaches, in the NFL is traced to the more equitable treatment of black people pioneered by the NFL's rival, the American Football League.

In 2007 Tony Dungy became the first African-American head coach to win the Vince Lombardi Trophy, winning Super Bowl XLI with the Indianapolis Colts.

[edit] Clean-up

I have taken the time to reorganize some structural work to this article such as tables and placement. I will continue doing this, and I will then start to proofread and rewrite the article so it can reach Good Article status. --Happyman22 00:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)