Talk:North Russia Campaign
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Hi, I just read this article--I don't know much about this event in history, and I add more information as I learn, I added signifigant information to the Polar Bear Expedition page, and I created the American Expeditionary Force Siberia page.
I am confused by the introduction, I made some minor changes but it still is difficult to understand, the Polar Bear Expedition intro, which I did not write, is much more easy to understand, especially to someone who is not familar with the history:
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- The Polar Bear Expedition (also known as the Northern Russian Expedition, the American North Russia Expeditionary Force - ANREF or the American Expeditionary Force North Russia - AEFNR) was a contingent of about 5,000 U.S. troops who landed in Arkhangelsk, Russia and fought the Bolshevik forces in the surrounding region during the period of September 1918 through July 1919.
I am concerned that we are duplicating our efforts, I guess this page has a more international focus, whereas the Polar Bear Expedition and American Expeditionary Force Siberia pages are focused only on American efforts. That said I am going to merge the information, as you suggested, about the British contigence into this article.
Nice job on the page though, I really like the photos. Travb 15:30, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I added a two sentence intro and moved the photos--I think all three photos need clearer captions explaining how they relate to the article. Travb 15:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Update
I just merged much of what was on Polar Bear Expedition about international forces to North Russia Campaign. Every time I read over my merge, I find something else that needs to be corrected.
I added the reasons for intervention from the Polar Bear Expedition to this site. Please delete or modify if not correct.
I am not sure if the numbers of foreign soilders in Russia 100% correct, if not, please change.
[edit] confused by portions of text
i am confused by these sections:
- In May 1918, Allied intervention was sought by the Kerensky Government to protect the Murmansk railroad which was threatened with capture by Finnish White Guard forces.
- Was the Kerensky Government red or white? I assume white, can you add this?
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- The lines of communications south from Arkhangelsk were the Northern Dvina in the east, the River Vaga, the Arkhangelsk Railway, Onega in the west, and the Emtsa River (Yemtsa) providing a line of communication between the Vaga and the railway in the centre.[1]
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- i have no idea what this means, please rewrite....possibly merge this one sole sentence into another section. -- Travb 17:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
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- The Kerensky Government was White, but it was Russian White. The White Guard was Finnish. 68.48.160.243 00:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
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- And, most important, lines of communication keep troops supplied with ammunition, fuel (and food, when they don't forage it from the local population). Septentrionalis 03:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
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- My bad. The question on lines of communication was answered earlier farther down in the discussion. This is done differently from other discussion sections in Wikipedia with responses being done not within sections of the discussion but with entirely new sections. That threw me off. 68.48.160.243 00:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] My thoughts on organizing these topics
This whole episode in history is very complex and confusing. Maybe we can create better articles by first outlining the campaigns & all of the participants in the Allied Intervention:
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- Allied Intervention in Russia
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- Allied Intervention in North Russia (aka North Russia Campaign)
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- British Army (6th & 13th Yorkshire Regiments, Royal Scots Battalion, others?)
- British Navy (plus a detachment of 53 US Navy sailors & officers - including Harold Gunnes - from the USS Olympia during Aug & Sept 1918 only)
- French Army (21st Colonial Battalion)
- Canadian Field Artillery (67th & 68th Batteries of the 16th Brigade, Canadian Field Artillery)
- Slavo-British Allied Legion (aka SBAL, anti-Bolshevik forces, included Dyer's Battalion, British trained and led)
- White Russian Army (previously the army of Kerensky's provisional democratic Russian govenrment, anti-Bolshevik, led by General Eugene Miller, a Russian native)
- U.S. Army, American North Russia Expeditionary Force (aka Polar Bear Expedition, 339th Infantry Regiment plus the First Battalion of the 310th Engineers)
- U.S. Army 167th and 168th Railroad Companies (sent to Murmansk to operate the Murmanks to Petrograd line)
- Miscellaneous Allied troops from Poland, Serbia and Italy
- British North Russian Relief Force (arrived in late May 1919 to cover the withdrawal of U.S. and Allied troops)
- Allied Intervention in Siberia
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- White Russian Army (anti-Bolshevik, led by Adm. Alexander Kolchak)
- Russian Cossacks (anti-Bolshevik, led by Gregorii Semenov and Ivan Kalmykof)
- U.S. Army, American Expeditionary Force Siberia (27th and 31st Infantry Regiments)
- Russian Railway Service Corps (a contingent of U.S. railway workers and managers who accompanied locomotives and rolling stock that the U.S. had originally committed to the Kerensky government for improving the Trans-Siberian Railroad).
- Japanese Army
- Czech Legion
- British Army
- French Army
- Chinese Army
I think that "lines of communication" is meant to describe the main travel routes in the region and as such, they also correspond to the battle fronts that developed in the North Russia Campaign. I agree that that section needs to be re-written.
Mike Grobbel 04:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Yes I see how confusing
Although I am not very versed in this subject, I agree, I have seen that this topic IS confusing....
What you are proposing appears on its face like a lot of work.
I think the first step is to have one overarching article page--explaining the entire period of foreign invasion, and include my (possible incorrect) numbers of foriegn invaders in this article.
What is the offical title of the entire episode, Eastern and Western Russia, Allied Intervention in Russia? Is there a less bland title?
American Expeditionary Force Siberia begins to cover this:
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- U.S. Army, American Expeditionary Force Siberia (27th and 31st Infantry Regiments)
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Polar Bear Expeditionbegins to cover this:
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- U.S. Army, American North Russia Expeditionary Force (aka Polar Bear Expedition, 339th Infantry Regiment plus the First Battalion of the 310th Engineers)
- U.S. Army 167th and 168th Railroad Companies (sent to Murmansk to operate the Murmanks to Petrograd line)
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That leaves:
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- Allied Intervention in Russia
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Allied Intervention in North Russia (aka North Russia Campaign)
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- British Army (6th & 13th Yorkshire Regiments, Royal Scots Battalion, others?)
- British Navy (plus a detachment of 53 US Navy sailors & officers - including Harold Gunnes - from the USS Olympia during Aug & Sept 1918 only)
- French Army (21st Colonial Battalion)
- Canadian Field Artillery (67th & 68th Batteries of the 16th Brigade, Canadian Field Artillery)
- Slavo-British Allied Legion (aka SBAL, anti-Bolshevik forces, included Dyer's Battalion, British trained and led)
- White Russian Army (previously the army of Kerensky's provisional democratic Russian govenrment, anti-Bolshevik, led by General Eugene Miller, a Russian native)
U.S. Army, American North Russia Expeditionary Force (aka Polar Bear Expedition, 339th Infantry Regiment plus the First Battalion of the 310th Engineers)U.S. Army 167th and 168th Railroad Companies (sent to Murmansk to operate the Murmanks to Petrograd line)- Miscellaneous Allied troops from Poland, Serbia and Italy
- British North Russian Relief Force (arrived in late May 1919 to cover the withdrawal of U.S. and Allied troops)
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- Allied Intervention in Siberia
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- White Russian Army (anti-Bolshevik, led by Adm. Alexander Kolchak)
- Russian Cossacks (anti-Bolshevik, led by Gregorii Semenov and Ivan Kalmykof)
U.S. Army, American Expeditionary Force Siberia (27th and 31st Infantry Regiments)- Russian Railway Service Corps (a contingent of U.S. railway workers and managers who accompanied locomotives and rolling stock that the U.S. had originally committed to the Kerensky government for improving the Trans-Siberian Railroad).
- Japanese Army
- Czech Legion
- British Army
- French Army
- Chinese Army
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Is the North Russia Campaign also called the Northern Russia Expedition?
Is there a better, more descriptive and colorful name for Allied Intervention in Siberia?
I started the page Allied Intervention in Russia, with your list (and wait for a more descriptive and colorful name we can easily move the page).
Originally, Allied Intervention in Russia Redirected to White movement, but I went ahead and started my own page.
[edit] Kazakstan
Interesting note: my wife, who grew up in the Soviet republic of Kazakstan has never heard of this period of history--I will ask my friends in the English club to ask if they know about it.--Travb 00:52, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] I did a little searching
After looking again through four of the better books on this topic (all by U.S. authors, written in 1959 and later) and conducting some Google searches on the Internet, it is clear that there is not a common set of phrases or titles that are consistently used to describe the Allied campaigns in Russia during 1918-1920 (much less any official titles). However, there are a common set of words used to describe the campaigns and rather that try to create more colorful titles, I think it would behoove us to settle on consistent article titles that draw from those sets of words that come from previous scholarship and to redirect Wikipedia users who search using various other combinations of those words.
The words "intervention", prefaced by either "Allied" or "U.S." were consistently used by the authors of those four books. Even President Wilson in his 17 Jul 1918 "Aide Memoire" repeatedly used the word "intervention" to describe the Allied intentions in North Russia and Siberia.
"Googling" the term "Allied Intervention" returns at the top of the list a Geo. Mason University Economics Professor's website which uses the term "Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War", which I think would make a better title for the overall Allied campaign in North Russia and Siberia than my previous "Allied Intervention in Russia". With that, I would recommend that the titles for the separate campaigns in Russia would be "Allied Intervention in North Russia" and "Allied Intervention in Siberia".
From my reading, here are some of the alternate descriptions and possible redirection titles we should consider for each of those titles:
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- Allied Intervention
- Allied Expeditions to Russia
- Allied Campaigns in Russia
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- British Intervention in Russia
- U.S. Intervention in Russia
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- Allied Intervention in North Russia
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- North Russia Campaign
- North Russia Expedition
- Allied North Russia Expeditionary Force
- Allied Campaign in North Russia
- British Intervention in North Russia
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- North Russian Relief Force
- U.S. Intervention in North Russia
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- Polar Bear Expedition
- American North Russia Expeditionary Force (ANREF)
- American Expeditionary Force North Russia (AEFNR)
- American Expedition to North Russia
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- Allied Campaigns in Siberia
- British Intervention in Siberia
- U.S. Intervention in Siberia
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- American Expeditionary Force Siberia (AEFS)
- Japanese Intervention in Siberia Travb 22:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
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I agree that on it's face, it appears to be a lot of work, but much of it is already well along. The proposed lead article, Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War, need consist only of the "Introduction" and "Reasons" from the North Russia Campaign with comparable information added about the Siberian campaign and a "See Also" section pointing to the North Russia and Siberia articles. Then, the "Reasons" portions in North Russia Campaign and Polar Bear Expedition can be removed and just referenced back to the lead article.
That would leave a more concise Polar Bear Expedition in pretty good shape and another North Russia Campaign with a good start. The proposed Allied Intervention in Siberia article will definitely take some effort, but the American Expeditionary Force Siberia article, is in good shape. I think that perhaps there should also be a separate British North Russian Relief Force article, in keeping with the organizational structure already established whereby major Allied Forces (AEFNR & AEFS) have their own separate article.
I will return over the next week or so and take a stab at making the revisions, but I am not sure what it takes to revise the title of an already-written article like North Russia Campaign to Allied Intervention in North Russia.
Mike Grobbel 16:20, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Agreed
Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War it is. I will move Allied Intervention in Russia, which I created yesterday, and move it to the new title.Travb 22:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] This is totally bias toward the commies!
Umm, the british & American expedition was samll and yet it STILL won battles. This 'article' makes it sound like the bolo's won. They did not. They were forced to retreat again and again. Only the because it was a pointless operation did we leave. And we had token forces there anyway. Even a link on this page (the British one) stats that the brits had kicked by the bolsheviks. Get you crap right will you. Before the brits left they made an offensive that kicked by the bolo's. (24.75.194.50 19:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
http://www.russianwarrior.com/STMMain.htm?1917_History.htm&1
Here is one source to contradict this article. (24.75.194.50 19:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
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- Um, reality check, the cold war is over. Rewrite portions of the article then.Travb 19:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] additional American units involvment
There were two Regular Army Regiments that participated in the Siberian Campaign. During the height of the cold war these units were quite proud that they were the only units in the army ever to fight on Russian soil. The other regiments and smallet units listed were volunteer or militia units, now equated with the National Guard or Reserves.
In 1918, the Russian government under the Bolshevik's, signed a separate peace treaty with the German government ending Russia's participation in World War I. This treaty dissolved the Eastern Front in Russia and released German troops to the Western Front in France. Because Russia had been an ally of the Western Powers, vast quantities of supplies had been shipped to Russian ports. The Allies were concerned the supplies would fall into the hands of warring Russian factions who the Allies feared would turn the supplies over to the Germans. Civil war had broken out in Russia among the Communists, the Reds, and factions loyal to the old Czarist regime the Whites, along with other less significant factions. In Siberia, the Trans Siberian railroad was the only East-West transportation link in the entire country. Whoever controlled the railroad would also control the movement of the supplies stockpiled in the Russian port of Vladivostok, located in eastern Siberia on the Sea of Japan.
The regiment departed Manila on 7 August, 1918, aboard the "Crook" arriving in Vladivostok on 16 August. The regiment's mission was to safeguard stockpiled war supplies in Vladivostok, protect the Trans Siberian Railroad, and assist the evacuation of the Czech Legion which had fought its way from the Ukraine, across the breath of Russia, to Vladivostok. The 27th Regiment (commanded by Colonel Henry D. Styer) was not the only Allied force in Siberia. The U.S. 31st Infantry Regiment (the Polar Bears) as well as British, Canadian, Czech, Chinese, Italian, French and Japanese troops also participated in the expedition.
The regiment's first mission was to move to the Ussuri sector and operate with the 12th Division of the Japanese Army under the command of LTG Oi. (The regiment would again reestablish their relationship with the 12th Division when the 1st Battalion trained with the 12th Division's 30th Regiment during "Orient Shield 94".) From late August to early November, 1918 the regiment helped secure the Trans Siberian Railroad from Vladivostok north to Khabarovsk. It was during this period that the Regiment earned its reputation for marching prowess, moving over 1000 miles in less than a month! In the first winter campaign the regiment accompanied White Russian and Japanese forces in pursuit of the Bolsheviks or "Reds", who were retreating near Spasskoe and Ussuri. During the campaign, the Japanese and White Russians became weary from the tremendous cold and rapid pace of the pursuit and soon fell out alongside the route, unable to go on. But the men from the 27th Regiment, though subjected to the same hardships continued to advance and soon passed their allies, continuing their pursuit of the retreating Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks were soon subjected to continuous attacks from different directions. The tireless soldiers of the Regiment exhausted the Communists as Russian Wolfhounds wear down a wolf, resulting in the capture of a Bolshevik strongpoint. The Japanese commander, General Yamada, despite his chagrin for the failure of his own troops, sent a note to the Regimental commander: "The Chief of the General Staff at Tokyo congratulates you upon your fast and able occupation of Khabarovsk."
From mid November 1918 until the Spring of 1920, the regiment guarded the Railroad in the vicinity of Yefgenyefka, 200 miles north of Vladivostok. In the spring of 1920, the 1st Battalion was given the responsibility to guard the Trans Siberian Railroad west toward lake Baikal. Companies A and B were ordered to the Lake Baikal sector while the remainder of the Battalion remained at Yefgenyefka, erroneously called Spasskoe by the Americans. (Spasskoe was a town two hundred miles away from the railroad.) As a result of the Regiment's actions in Siberia and earlier exploits in the Philippines, the Wolfhound legend was born; from this time forth, the Regiment and its Battalions would be known as the "Wolfhounds". In addition to its nickname, the Regiment's Coat of Arms was now complete. With its crest representing its first campaign in the Philippines, the Siberian service is represented by the blue Polar Bear with a white "S" for Siberia, outlined by an artillery shell. This was the emblem of the Allied force in Siberia.
In early January, 1920 The regiment received orders to consolidate at Vladivostok for redeployment to the Philippines. On 17 January the regiment, minus C and D of the 1st Battalion, embarked aboard the "Great Northern" and sailed to Manila arriving on 26 January. C and D company would not complete their arrival at Vladivostok until 25 February. With the remainder of the Regiment, C and D companies embarked aboard the "Thomas" on 10 March arriving in Manila on 17 March. While in the Philippines the Battalion(-) was headquartered in Manila, while C and D companies were headquartered at Cuartel de Infanteria. The next move would take the regiment to Hawaii.
Here is a link to the 27th Infgantry Regiment Homepage. http://www.kolchak.org
Thank you. Allen Ness
[edit] Something that's been bothering me
The section titled "International Contingency" starts by jumping right into describing the British 6th Battalion's role in the campaign and continues to do so for most of the rest of the section. This just doesn't read right with the Battalion being one of 13 other British and additional Allied units. I'm not saying it doesn't belong. I'm just saying it should have some foreword on the force as a whole, be placed in context with the rest of the force, and of course fair and equitable attention should be given the other participating units.
I also can't help but feel that 6th Battalion's experience seems to have been picked as being the worst possible example of how it was for British troops in Russia. 68.48.160.243 00:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
