Talk:Norwegian people

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Contents 1 Removals 2 Underestimation of Total Population 3 Norwegian Lutherans 4 Norwegians a Germanic people? 4.1 Accuracy disputed 5 Dispute 6 Delete this article? 7 Population? 8 The translation of the term Nordmenn

[edit] Removals

I've removed some racist material and other POV's from this page. As I won't be surprised to see it reinstated I kindly ask that anyone that might do so evaluates the material first. Some other removals could also be needed. - Moravice

I do not understand what your objections are to this article. If you could please explain yourself, that would be best. Thanks. (by the way I made some new revisions to the article, not a "blind revert") -BSveen 16:05, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Underestimation of Total Population

The total population is underestimated at 7.8 considering manny Norwegian diasporas were left out. True number probably stands around 10 million.

where come those numbers from?

[edit] Norwegian Lutherans

The page claims "the vast majority" of Norwegians are Lutherans. This is not true; a large Norwegian newspaper, Aftenposten, have found out that no more than 49.5% of the norwegian population answers "yes" at the question "do you believe in God".

Yes you are absolutely right, thats why i have changed the formulation to the "vast majority are nominally Lutherans,(the majority of Norways population still hold membership in the Norwegian Lutheran Church) and mentioned the secularization of a country which probably ranks among the least religious in the world. The religiousity among Norwegian-Americans, as this article also include under Norwegians, is however probably stronger. Not that I have seen any figures but I think it can be presumed due to the relative high level of religiousity in the general American population. Thats why I mention only the secularization of Norway proper, not of Norwegians as this here is meant to mean also their descendants across the Atlantic Ocean. kjetor

I updated this. If you read closley, it said the vast majority of religious Norwegians were Lutheran. However, I updated it to reflect current statistics from Norway.CBadSurf 00:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norwegians a Germanic people?

This article is included in the category Germanic peoples along with other modern national groups (Danes, Swedes, English, Dutch), although no source is given for the claims. I nominated the category for deletion - see its entry here - because it includes modern groups under a historical term (Roman period to mediaeval). The category is being used for a political agenda, to promote the idea that ethnic groups and nations in north-west Europe are "Germanic". That claim is typically associated with neo-nazi groups, for the association of the term Germanic peoples with Nazism, see Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Lebensraum, and for instance Hitler salute. As with the Swedes and Danes, the issue here is also whether Norwegians describe themselves as a "Germanic people".Paul111 20:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You do not have to place the exact same message on every talkpage which falls into the Germanic peoples category. 1 is enough.Rex 21:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Since the German Nazis put the Nordic peoples on the top of their race ranking which caused such horrible acts, Norwegians are not very keen on discussing these things. After the war studies on grouping peoples and such were not exactly seen as usefull (and they really aren't). Anyway I dug up a Norwegian book from 1934 (Jorden (The Earth) by Werner Werenskiold). It briefly describes the Norwegians as a nordisk (Nordic) germansk (Germanic) people. It also pokes fun at the German's habit of assigning the "nordic breed" all sorts of heroic traits. In general the classification of Norwegians, Swedes and others into categories such as Germanic is not very usefull or relevant, but since it is not wrong I don't see the necesity to delete such categories.Inge 00:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Here’s a test: If the category includes Ashkenazi Jews, whose traditional language (Yiddish) and significant proportion of culture throughout the last 1000 years or more is clearly “Germanic”, as well various NW European traveller groups, then this category makes some sort of sense in a linguistical and cultural way. If this doesn't happen sometime soon, that seems pretty clear proof of “race” being the deciding factor. If that turns out to be the case, then this category needs to go. Now. -- Olve 01:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

But the article Ashkenazi Jews does not state any relation to Germanic peoples. The article can't be put in that category when it does not mention any connection to Germanic peoples. The article Yiddish language does however state that it is a Germanic language. So I guess that issue either isn't as straight forward.Inge 12:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Common ancestry is one of the deciding factors of grouping people. It's stupid to say "If this doesn't happen sometime soon, that seems pretty clear proof of “race” being the deciding factor. If that turns out to be the case, then this category needs to go. Now." Many Jews themselves put great emphasis on ancestry: [1] Lukas19 12:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, Norwegians are Germanic. I´m surprised to see that this can be a matter of dispute. Isn´t the ethnicity of a people determined by that people´s ancestry? If it is, then it must be clear that the Norwegian people indeed is a part of a Germanic group. Yes, the cultures, languages etc. of the Germanic peoples have become more diverse, but that does not change the fact that these peoples are branches from the same tree. If you find the term "Germanic" to have certain negative connotations, that is really your problem. Even if misused, and even if people associate it with nazism, the fact still stands. Pretending otherwise because some people do not know how to separate science from politics is in my opinion not a very good idea. 129.177.156.111 18:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy disputed

Added accuracy dispute tag, since the article now states twice that Norwegians are part of the Germanic peoples. This category is not in use for modern ethnic groups, seeGermanic peoples. (I would have used a section accuracy tag, but neither claim is in a section).Paul111 17:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are not doing this just to prove some sort of point in relation to your category deletion dispute. If you ascribe to the notion of ethnic groups, what group are the ethnic Norwegians a sub-group of, if not the Germanic group? This reference: Werenskiold, Werner; Jorden Dens land og folk, Annet bind Australia, Amerika, Europa; Gyldendal Norsk Forlag; Oslo; 1934. Pages 363 and 585 describes the Norwegians as predominantly Nordic which is in turn a subgroup of the Germanic group. I don't expect to find many modern works trying to classify Norwegians ethnicly like this since it has been seen as and IMO is totally irrelevant. The article Ethnic group states "Ethnic groups are usually classified by the language they speak." It then goes on to classify Germanic peoples as a sub-group of the Indo-Iranians. The article Germanic peoples states "The Germanic peoples are a linguistic and ethnic branch of Indo-European peoples, [...]identified by their use of the Germanic languages [...]." The article Germanic languages lists Norwegian as such. It seems to be generally agreed that Germanic is a valid sub-grouping to use when classifying ethnic groups today and that the Norwegians are a sub-group of that group.Inge 18:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No modern ethnic or national group belongs to the Germanic peoples, and that article clearly says so. The category is being used to claim that they do, and that is reason to delete it. However, the false claim is not confined to the category, but is repeated elsewhere, as in the template at this article. All of these references should go. Two other users have pointed out that many East European Jews also spoke a Germanic language, Yiddish, and if language is the criteria, then they belong on this page as a related ethnic group. As for the reference, there were many books published in the 1930s about the Germanic peoples and the Aryan race, but since 1945 few people take their content seriously.Paul111 18:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster dictionary defines ethnicity as:

Main Entry: eth·nic·i·ty Pronunciation: eth-'ni-s&-tE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties 1 : ethnic quality or affiliation <aspects of ethnicity> 2 : a particular ethnic affiliation or group <students of diverse ethnicities>

And ethnic as:

Main Entry: 1eth·nic Pronunciation: 'eth-nik Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin ethnicus, from Greek ethnikos national, gentile, from ethnos nation, people; akin to Greek Ethos custom -- more at SIB 1 : HEATHEN 2 a : of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background <ethnic minorities> <ethnic enclaves> b : being a member of a specified ethnic group <an ethnic German> c : of, relating to, or characteristic of ethnics <ethnic neighborhoods> <ethnic foods>

Therefore we can consider Germanic as an ethnic group/category since Germanic people share common racial, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background. The only part missing is national. Lukas19 20:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Paul, if you want to be taken seriously please don't play the nazi card. None of us here have Nazi affiliations or sympathies to my knowledge. If you can put that behind you the discussion might benfit. You obviously don't know the work I have mentioned and therefore should not allude to it being some sort of nazirelated race theory book. It is not. I would also urge you to try to separate the terms germanic and aryan. The notion of an aryan master race was a nazi invention. Germanic does not fall into the same category. If you have something against the term Germanic because of its misuse by the Nazis, maybe you should adress that problem. After 1945 research into the origins and relations between the Germanic peoples were not exactly a priority among scholars for obvious reasons. Quite frankly I think that was for the better, we have more important things to spend our academic resources on. You are correct that the article has the following passage: ""Germanic" as understood today is a linguistic term. Modern ethnicities speaking Germanic languages are usually not referred to as Germanic peoples, a term of historic scope. All present-day countries speaking a Germanic language have mixed ethnic roots not restricted to the earliest Germanic peoples." This does not state that no modern ethnic or national group belongs to the Germanic peoples. It states that the use of the term is no longer common and that all peoples have some some degree of mixed ancestry. The article states among other things that the Germanic Jutes merged with the Germanic Danes. The end result should then be also a predominantly Germanic people inhabiting Denmark. Can you tell me which other people merged with the Danes to make the present Danes not Germanic? The article also mentions the Norwegians as a Germanic group. Can you tell us when the Norwegians stopped being a Germanic people? There has to my knowledge not been any influxes of non-germanic peoples to Norway the last 1500-2000 years large enough to change the status of Norwegians as a predominantly Germanic people. (There is no doubt that Norwegians have mixed ethnic roots and this is not about who has the right to call themselves a Norwegian. That is not the point we are discussing here.) Unless you deny that a Norwegian ethnicity exits you would have to give some reasonable explantion as to what group it belongs to if not the Germanic.Inge 21:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The onus is on the editor to provide a reliable source for the claim, that the Norwegian people are a Germanic people. Because Germanic is no longer accepted, a book from 1934 would not be a reliable source. A reliable source would be, for instance, a recent survey indicating that the majority of Norwegians describe themselves as 'Germanic'.Paul111 12:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Well the book is a reliable source. I don't see how any work is to be done here if we have the obligation to prove every useage of every term at every passage of time. I have tried several times to explain that research into the germanicness of Norwegians have not been made since WWII. Your demand of a recent survey asking if Norwegians feel they are germanic or not is impossible to meet and I suspect that is why you demanded it. You are the one stating that the term is no longer accepted. The article on Germanic peoples does not state that. It clearly describes the Norwegians as a Germanic people. Up to what point in time do you accept the Norwegians being a Germanic people? Maybe we can reach a compromise: "Norwegians were a Germanic people up to 1945." Is that acceptable for you?Inge 13:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Why have you not placed the disputed tag on the German, Swedish and Danish articles? They state the same as this one. I believe you are not trying to engage in a serious discussion on the status of Norwegians, but out to make a point.Inge 14:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the {{accuracy}} tag from the article page. The arguments presented by Paul111 seem to be heavily POV:ed by political motives (Paul111 somehow manages to connect "germanic" with nazism), and besides that I suspect that we're dealing with a troll here. Paul111 requests "reliable sources" about the "claim" that norwegians - just like other scandinavians, as well as europeans - belongs to the germanic group. Well, I don't know where to start, since about any book I've read on this subject classifies scandinavians as a part of the larger group of germanic people. At the same time Paul111 uses other Wikipedia articles to back his own claims. Don't get me wrong, but I don't consider Wikipedia that much of a reliable source, since it is open for anyone to edit. Anyway, I would prefer to have an administrator look into this, because I have a feeling that Paul111 is violating a few policies and guidelines in this little crusade of his. And I suspect that this user is a troll, because thit is a schoolbook example of troll behaviour: To appear from nowhere, and start disputes on subjects that are far from controversial, in order to make people bend over backwards in their efforts to prove that what is already proven is correct. People, don't feed the trolls. And don't be afraid to remove tags and templates that you feel have been placed on article pages without a proper reason. /M.O (u) (t) 17:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Paul111, you want a reliable survey that most Norwegians consider themselves Germanic? You won't find one. Norwegians consider themselves Norwegian, first of all. Then they consider themselves Scandinavian. If you push them they will admit they are Europeans. They admit they speak a Germanic language, like English. But we all know that one thousand years ago a lot of Germanic tribes wandered around northern Europe. Some of them happened to be in Europe. But that doesn't make Germanic a synonym with nazism. CBadSurf 07:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute

Those who follows news in Norway will know that the term "nordmann" (Norwegian/noun) has been controversial in Norway as well. I don't think this is a simple issue, but let me add a couple of points to the fray:

• I fundamentally reject the idea that genetics should matter at all. Olve's acid test is apt.
• "Ethnic Norwegian" is a bit of an elusive term. What is it that a shipowner in Bergen has in common with a tenant farmer in Hedmark? Or a fisher in Lofoten with a shoemaker in Kristiansand?
• If we are talking about Norwegian cultural and linguistic heritage, then this should be covered in articles on Norwegian literature, ethnology, architecture, music, etc., etc.
• If we are talking about the people who have lived and live in Norway, then demographics of Norway is the right article. --Leifern 13:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delete this article?

The more I think about it, the more I think this article should be deleted. We have Culture of Norway, Demographics of Norway, Norwegian language, Norwegian literature, History of Norway, etc., etc. There probably should be an article called Ethnology of Norway, and that should be all we need. I'll await reactions before formally nominating it. --Leifern 14:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, since we have Danish people, Swedish people, Icelanders, Faroese people, Germans, Dutch (ethnic group) and so on, we should also have this article. If you want these kinds of articles to be deleted, maybe you should take that up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups to open a more generally based discussion on these kinds of articles. Inge 15:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

You're right that it's a broader discussion. But in looking at these articles, too, there are similar problems in that they struggle with definitions. --Leifern 16:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Leifern. The idea that Americans or Canadians with a Norwegian ethnic background are Norwegian doesn't stand up to reality. The first generation emigrants can identify Norwegian, and the second generation if the maintain citizenship and the language. But not beyond that. Assimilation in these countries is so complete, that very few can identify a single ethnic background -- except of course for some Asians, who have limited inter-marriage. The reality is you are now a Canadian, or an American.

On top of all this, there is a whole debate going on in Norway now about who is and isn't an "ethnic Norwegian."

CBadSurf 00:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

What do you think of this edit? I differentiated ancestry from ancestry+identification with culture (ethnicity)...Lukas19 02:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I just don't know how much this article adds to Culture of Norway, Demographics of Norway, Norwegian language, Norwegian literature, History of Norway, etc., etc. especially if we add Ethnology of Norway. Maybe there should be an article about what it means to have a Norwegian identity, but that's a different topic. --Leifern 22:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree -- this article doesn't add much. CBadSurf 02:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the fact that there has been a debate makes it clear that it's not that simple. Besides historians do not seem to have any trouble with separating Norwegians and Sami as different peoples Fornadan (t) 07:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population?

Following in the weighty discussions above, this may seem a little minor, but in the info box, the total population is estimated as 4.3 million, and only the USA and Canada are listed as areas of significant population. Is this info box meant only to refer to Norwegians in diaspora? If so, it lacks clear marking as such; its name is simply "Norwegians" (Nordmenn) and it estimates total population to no more than that of Norway. I apologise if this due to inattention on my part, but I cannot find out this puzzle.Hinakana 13:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Americans or Canadians or anyone else with only partial Norwegian ancestry, with no knowledge of Norwegian and who hasnt lived in Norway for a long time are not ethnic Norwegians...Lukas19 22:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Lukas, you seem to be confusing ethnic Norwegian with culturally Norwegian. An ethnic Norwegian is someone who is of Norwegian ancestry, plain and simple. We could argue over how much Norwegian ancestry makes someone an ethnic Norwegian (for example, having a Norwegian parent vs having a Norwegian great great great grandparent). It sounds like that if we reversed your logic, and that if someone who had just partial Norwegian ancestry was able to speak Norwegian and lived in Norway for a long time then he could be considered ethnic Norwegian, however being able to speak the language and living in the country does not change someone's ethnic group. Ancestry (one's ethnic group) and Culture can be two completely different things.

In the case of USA and Canada, the numbers only reflect the number of people who consider themselves Norwegian (as in that's what they write on their census), not whether those people are culturally or even ethnically Norwegian.

Yeah but most Americans or Canadians in question claim partial Norwegian ancestry. Someone with 1/4 Norwegian and 3/4 Swedish ancestry may be an ethnic Norwegian but not someone with 1/4 Norwegian, 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Native American and 1/4 Irish. Of course this is my opinion and you are entitled to your own opinion but there is a distinction with predominantly Norwegian people living in Norway and speaking Norwegian and others with partial Norwegian ancestry; and the table makes that distinction. Lukas19 00:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The translation of the term Nordmenn

I edited the translation of the term Nordmenn. It translates as Norsemen not 'men from the north'. Swedes, Danes and also Norwegians would confirm this.