Talk:Notable alleged Ku Klux Klan members in national politics

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Contents 1 Unrelaibility of the Warren G. Harding Section 2 e-mail to Stetson Kennedy requesting information 3 Of the Klan, Harding, Jim Thorpe, et.al. 4 No national leaders belonged to KKK at the time they were leaders 5 Harry S. Truman 6 Political Machine boses, mayors and Klansmen 7 On the Claim that Harding Was a Faerie 8 White 9 Foot-Notes 10 “ability to join” 11 James T.M. Anderson

[edit] Unrelaibility of the Warren G. Harding Section

Regarding the section of Warren G. Harding -- there is no proof of the claim made in this article that Harding was a member of the KKK, merely the presentation of one researcher’s findings - and even these are speculative. Fact tells a different path than the one presented in thsi article.

In reviewing the Harding Presidency materials at the Ohio Historical Society there are no primary source documents to back-up the so called "plausible evidence" (read: circumstantial evidence) quoted in this article to the effect that Harding was brought into the KKK while in office. Furthermore, numerous respected historians have taken this topic up before. (I must qualify this by stating that Gaston Means, William Estabrook Chancellor and Francis Russell do not count as reliable historians when it comes to Harding.) There simply are no rosters, sign in books, appointment book entries – FACTS, mind you, to back these claims against Harding.

Totally lacking in the removed section was the discussion of the Klan’s “One Drop Rule” that was in force in the 1920s. The One Drop Rule, which is widely known by those who have studied the Klan, stipulated that no man could join the Klan if there was the possibility or existence of one drop of “negro” blood in his veins. Rumors (floated by William Estebrook Chancellor and others) existed that Harding was of mixed blood, ergo, the Klan never would have welcomed him into their ranks. Most recently, Robert Ferrell discusses the “KKK” issue in his very well researched and written book, The Strange Deaths of President Harding. (Note: Ferrell uses the plural "Deaths" in his title as both play on words, and references to Gaston Means book, see below)

What is known, and this is documented in Harding’s personal papers on file at the Ohio Historical Society (Which has thousands of linear feet of Harding’s original documents in their archives) is that Harding was elevated within the Masonic Rite by his home lodge while in office. I do not have the specific degree in front of me at this moment.

As for the vercacity of the KKK web sites, that reference speaks for itself. And it is well known that the KKK is a secretive society,which means it does not publish its member rosters.

If this needs to be clarified by a noted Harding scholar, I would suggest getting in touch with the Ohio Historical Society, and then being connected with the site manager of the Harding Home in Marion Ohio.

But my favorite part of this removed section is the granting of War Department license tags that allowed people to run red lights! This is a fanciful, and totally inaccurate statement. No such plates existed – if they had, such a perquisite would have not only been well known, but why would anyone from the War Department have a need to run a red light? Furthermore, had these plates existed, they would have placed on Governmental vehicles, not privatly owned cars!

Finally, I appreciate the open source aspect of Wikipedia, it does give an outlet to those who have facts to share facts, I do have a problem with those who state that confuse “plausible” evidence, with circumstantial evidence. Such demonstrations devalue Wikipedia, and cast a wide cloud over the reliability of this site. Skoblentz 21:59, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The article clearly states the source of the information, which was Kennedy's deathbed interview with Young. It's fine that you've stated the case against Harding's membership. Readers can consider the evidence and decide for themselves.--Bcrowell 01:17, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Very well. But I find the argument that “Harding was in the Klan because someone took a deathbed confession and then passed it onto a third party who reported the incident” to be horribly flawed, and plausible least possible way. The author you cite wasn’t even at the deathbed confessional, ergo, all he really had to work on was what the reporter – who may have had Klan ties, or even a personal belief that Harding was involved – provided. My point is what you present isn’t plausible so much as it is alleged. If one of my students presented this and drawn the conclusion that you did based on one source, I don’t think I would have passed them. I believe that Harding should not be included in this article. At the very least I believe that the section that you included needs to clarified from "plausible" to "alleged". Again, my concern is that what people read on Wikipedia needs to be factual, not merely a book report on one authors claims. Skoblentz 17:02, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm just as unimpressed with the arguments in the second subsection as you are with the arguments made in the first subsection. The reader can weigh the evidence and decide. You might also want to read the current version of the article, since, e.g., the word "plausible" is no longer there.--Bcrowell 17:24, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Bcrowell, we may not seem to see things eye to eye, but I based my arguments on facts. Evidently, our paths our quite different. As for my errors, I can will fix those, but my facts stand alone and have scholarly research backing them up. I really wish you well. Skoblentz 18:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

By the way, could you please proofread your subsection? It's full of errors in spelling, capitalization, punctuation, and grammar.--Bcrowell 17:45, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

You don't really mean that it's based on "heresy" and rumor, do you?--Bcrowell 21:29, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

No, hearsay. My bad. The reference that I used the wrong word towards wasn't directly involved in the action that they reported. He was simply going on what one man reported to him that he heard on another man on his deathbed if I read reference correctly. Stu 01:40, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] e-mail to Stetson Kennedy requesting information

It turns out Stetson Kennedy is still living (there's a WP article on him), and he has a web site run by Sean Kennedy, who I'm guessing is his son. I've e-mailed Sean Kennedy to ask for info about the Harding issue:

Hello,

I don't know if you're familiar with the Wikipedia project. It's
an online encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone who
wants to volunteer. I've been working on a couple of Wikipedia's
articles relating to the Ku Klux Klan:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_Ku_Klux_Klan_members_in_national_politics

There's also an article on Stetson Kennedy, who I guess is your father? --

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stetson_Kennedy

The article on notable members in national politics discusses the possible evidence
that President Harding was a Klan member, and the source for that is
Wyn Craig Wade, The Fiery Cross: The Ku Klux Klan in America. New York: Simon and
Schuster (1987), which says Alton Young, on his deathbed, described Harding's
induction to Stetson Kennedy. This has led to a lot of debate, because it's so
indirect (Wade's account of Kennedy's account of Young's eyewitness acount),
and also because people are suspicious that the whole thing is an example of
the Klan's attempts to puff up its own importance. The claim about the war
department license tags also smells fishy to a lot of people.

I was wondering if you could tell me if Stetson Kennedy ever published an
account of his interview with Young in any of his books, and whether you
can shed any other light on any of the other evidence that is supposed to
exist, e.g., letters to Coolidge that Wade says are in Coolidge's presidential
papers, or statements in various places on the web that "Imperial Wizard James Venable
(now deceased) claims to have possessed photographs of a Klan funeral ceremony  conducted
for Harding in Marion, OH August 1923." Any help you could provide would be
much appreciated. Currently, if you do a Google search on "ku klux klan,"
the Wikipedia article is the third thing that pops up, so a large number of
people are going to be getting their information on the Klan from these
articles. Thanks in advance!

--Bcrowell 18:51, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Of the Klan, Harding, Jim Thorpe, et.al.

Bcrowell - I commend you for going to a source for verification.

If you would have asked me about a Klan visitation to Harding's grave, I could have told you about this - I own original picture postcards of the event. The Klan did visit Harding grave while he was interred in receiving vault at Marion Cemetery. For that matter, they also paraded around town in the 1920s a great deal. The Klan in Ohio maintained an office in the Mart Building on North State Street; after Harding died, the new owners of the Marion Star moved the paper into the building following the Klan's eviction. The Marion Star is still located in that building.

Its also a fact was that Olympian Jim Thorpe, also played professional basketball in the Mart Building's second floor auditorium with a team comprised of all native Americans (they even played the Chicago Bulls in that building according to the Marion Star ads for the event!)- while the Klan operated the building. Now, the Klan visiting Harding's grave, no more makes Harding a member of the Klan than does it make the Klan honorary native Americans because Jim Thorpe played ball in the building. The boy scouts also annually visited the Harding tomb as well. Mrs. Harding was an ardent supporter, the President never was a scout; does their visitation make him guilty of being a secret boy scout as well?

I don't mean to be flip, but it just seems as if Harding's connections to the Klan seem to be very indirect. Now if the email is answered with sound references that can be verified in a sound matter, I'm open to further investigation. Stu 02:28, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be responding to things that I never said in the article, and things I never said on this talk page.--Bcrowell 02:51, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

To the contrary, in the email quoted above that you provided you state "Imperial Wizard James Venable (now deceased) claims to have possessed photographs of a Klan funeral ceremony conducted for Harding in Marion, OH August 1923." All I said was that I have copies of photographs, later made into postcards, that verify that indeed, the Klan made visitation to Harding's grave. As I read this, the context was that the Klan's visitation was confirmation of Harding's membership, is that not what what you meant by including the event in the email to your source? Stu 14:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

A funeral ceremony isn't the same as a visit to a grave. You also seem to be answering a variety of logical arguments that I never actually made.--Bcrowell 15:31, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

They most certainly are implied. Believe me, I am with you 100% on documenting these racial terrorists for what they are. But I just get the feeling that linking Harding to the Klan has transcended objectivity. Stu 15:55, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No national leaders belonged to KKK at the time they were leaders

I believe that no national politician in the 1920s acknowledged membership in the KKK. Look at say Senator Earle Mayfield (who refused to talkk about the Klan). That is important: no one in Washington spoke on behalf of the group (and many spoke against it). Hugo Black belonged for a while, as a young lawyer who did not hold office. Likewise Senator Byrd was a local leader in the 1940s, long before he held office. Truman of course was a minor figure in the early 1920s. Chief Justice White had briefly belonged to the first KKK as a young man; not the 2nd. No federal judge in the 1920s has ever been identified with the KKK. By the way, we ought to be real careful about using poor sources like the Wade, "Fiery Cross." See the Amazon.com site where the Publisher's Weekly review sums it up as "This doggedly researched history of the American racist group is bloated with cliches, overstatements, colloquialisms, sensationalistic accounts of sexual atrocities and nonsensical connections." The author Wade is a psychologist who has not read the history journals. Rjensen 04:49, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

This is a duplicate of a post on the main Ku Klux Klan article's talk page. Please don't post the same thing in two places, because it just makes it harder to have a coherent discussion.--Bcrowell 05:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I rephrased the opening to make clear that hardly any important people belonged to the KKK at the time they were important. Readers need to know that up front, because it sets the image for who ran the country in the 1920s. Rjensen 07:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Harry S. Truman

Kudos to the editors of this page for the section on Harry S. Truman. User:Bcrowell and I worked hard together to create a neutral and factually accurate discussion of Truman's brief flirtation with the Klan while this all was still part of the main Ku Klux Klan article. The current version is even better. It is very fair and very very thorough. Job well done, folks. --Hnsampat 06:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Political Machine boses, mayors and Klansmen

Charles Bowles and John Duvall

[edit] On the Claim that Harding Was a Faerie

The section on Harding contained this sentence:

Despite all the evidence against Harding being in the Klan we must remember that absence of proof is not proof of absence.

We might as well, then, have articles on which public figures are magical beings of one sort or another. After all, if “absence of proof is not proof of absence”, then who is to say? In point of fact absence of proof is proof of absence; that's a standard principle of empirical logic, known as “Ockham's Razor”. A rejection of this principle is known as “a leap of Faith”, which leaping would be just fine if this article were presented as religious dogma. —12.72.68.195 13:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Unfortunatly, we live in an era when facts take a second seat to fact interupretation. I remember that I had a go around whith some Wikipedian who based his belief that Harding was in the Klan because he read about the authors of Freakanomics visiting some KKK hunter in Florida and they tried on a Klan robe that the man had. This was proof enough for this fellow and he was intent on having his way. Several months later when the authors of Freakanomics disclosed that their infalible source had in fact been "guilding the lilly" on the facts he was reporting on, there wasn't a peep from the person. I qualified the passage with a citation in the argument against Harding in the Klan, but haven't heard a peep from the person who was so sure of what he believed rather than what he knew as fact. Stude62 21:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Again we have someone insisting on the nonsensical claim that “the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Again, if this principle were true, then no empirical proposition could be rejected. We reject the claim that there are fairies and that Harding were a fairie because the absence of evidence for fairies is evidence that there are no fairies, and the absence of evidence that Harding were a fairie is evidence that he was not a fairie. Likewise, we reject the claim that each of our Presidents (including Harding) were a member of the Ku Klux Klan. —75.5.174.230 23:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] White

The reference for White was in fact missing. I have therefore inserted a {{fact}}. If no proper citation appears within a week, then I will rewrite this section to reflect a gross lack of substantiation. —71.154.208.74 02:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I made a good faith effort to find some source for the claim about Edward Douglass White, and came up perfectly empty. My call for a cited source has been ignored. Hence, I am removing the whole subsection. If someone wants to restore it, then he or she should have a cited source to include. —71.154.208.74 07:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Restoring the White section until it is somehow proved that a citation cannot be found is ridiculous. Provide a citation or leave the White section out. —12.72.71.48 09:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Checking 2005 versions of the article on the Klan, I see that the charge against White is made by Wyn Craig Wade. This is the very same fellow who is teh source of the Harding charges that got chewed-up. In any event, I will now post a White section that appropriately sources the claim. —12.72.71.48 11:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone (anonymous) who apparently doesn't understand wiki mark-up put this

13. Paths to Distinction by: William D. Reeves p.157 States that White was never a member of the Klan, but stated he was for acceptance. This book was written at the request of The Friends of the Edward Douglass White Historic Site of Thibodaux, Louisiana.

Amongst the footnotes. It doesn't have a link back to anything. It also is ambiguously worded. (What sort of acceptance of what?) —12.72.71.48 12:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Foot-Notes

There are 15 foot-note markers in the body, and were 12 actual footnotes (plus the thing mentioned above in the discussion on White). I prowled old versions and found a thirteenth foot-note. I suspect that the others were tied to notes in the Klan article before this thing was spun-off. Someone should find them. I don't think that I will bother looking. —12.72.71.48 12:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I've added a fn, so there are now 16 markers and 14 actual notes. Two markers remain unmatched. —12.72.73.78

Okay, the foot-notes are largely cleaned-up now. But, as well as the Mysterious White Thing, I also found that this

^  “Church of the American Knights of the KKK” from the ADL, 22 October 1999, retrieved 26 June 2005.

wasn't properly tied back to the body of the article. —12.72.72.172 19:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that note seems to have been mistakenly dragged from the main body during a previous attempt to clean-up the notes. So I think that the footpnotes are now in proper order. Paths to Distinction may be a relevant reference for White, but the earlier editor mishandled the citation and I don't know where it was to go. —12.72.72.172 19:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] “ability to join”

The phrase “ability to join” isn't quoted; it is merely emphasized. (I don't know nor will I worry about by whom.) —71.154.208.74 21:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] James T.M. Anderson

Is there in fact any evidence that James T. M. Anderson was a member of the KKK? We don't want this article to be a list of every politician who received a majority (or even a preponderate majority) of the Klan vote. —75.18.113.152 03:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved Content:

=== James T. M. Anderson ===

In [[Saskatchewan]], [[Canada]], the KKK was seen as having a dramatic effect on the provincial election of 1929, which defeated the [[James G. Gardiner]] [[Liberal Party of Canada|Liberal]] government and installed the 1929–1934 [[Progressive Conservative Party of Saskatchewan|Conservative]] government of [[James T.M. Anderson]]. It is not known if Anderson, himself, was ever a member of the Klan.