Talk:Odysseus

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Contents 1 Cleaning it Up 2 Birth date? 3 Sisyphus as father of Odysseus? 4 Etymology of Odysseus 5 Odysseus in modern literature 6 Dante 7 No Sirens? 8 New Greek discovery: confirmed? 9 Odysseus during the Trojan War 10 Polyphemus - "another interpretation" 11 Some deleted text which needs merging 11.1 The deleted section 12 World of Biography link 13 Homer and a sequel 14 Helios' Revenge 15 Odysseus travelling the Atlantic? 16 Naive presentation as if a "biography" 17 landing at Troy 18 suitor of Helen? 19 etymology from Iman Wilkens 20 duplication of effort? 21 Modern Odysseus stuff 22 Real or Fictional 23 Length of Travel 24 About his name 25 Pronunciation of name 26 Greek Mythology 27 Twenty years of wandering?

[edit] Cleaning it Up

Wow, nobody's touched this in over a year? Time for some work! So far, I've cleaned up the syntax and deleted some extraneous details on the first two paragraphs. The synopses of the Iliad and Odyssey are going to get significantly smaller; there's no need for such huge summaries outside the scope of the articles for those two works. Also, the grammar and syntax on this article is going to get a major overhaul. I hope you all enjoy (or at least appreciate) the finished product. Molinero 18:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birth date?

I have a question. Was the date of birth of Odysseus mentioned even not specifically? --210.1.100.167 14:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)jg

Odysseus is a mythological personage, and there is no mention of his birth date in Homer's. So no. Uly 20:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a vague account by the Delphi oracle. The Roman emperor Hadrian visited Delphi and asked: "Where was Homer born and who were his parents?" The answer was "Homer was born on the island of Ithaca, and was none other than son of Telemachus, and grandson of Odysseus himself. Unfortunately there was no dating system before the first recorded Olympic games.--Odysses 14:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

hello ma name is ria

[edit] Sisyphus as father of Odysseus?

What source is the basis of this statement?

• Removed this statement, since it is clear from the Odyssey that Laertes was Odysseus' father. --JW1805 05:17, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Just because the Odyssey says one thing, doesn't mean other (later?) traditions didn't name Sisyphus in Laertes' place. The question stands: is there any source on which this is based? -- Perey 20:40, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Robert Graves, in his "Greek Myths," gives alternate traditions that describe Sisyphus' seduction of Anticleia (Odysseus' mother) following a dispute with her father, Autolycus. The circumstances of the seduction is given as the source of Odysseus' "cunning" and his nickname "Hypsipylon." Graves lists his sources in a footnote but I don't currently have access to those texts. Ande B. 19:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Ovid calls him the son of Sisyphus in Metamorphoses, and I believe Euripides does the same in Iphigenia at Aulis. It ought to be noted that, with the traditional genealogy of Greek heroes, there are serious problems with Sisyphus as Odysseus's father. Odysseus's contemporaries, Sarpedon and Glaucus, were great-great grandsons of Sisyphus, being grandsons of Bellerophon, himself a grandson of Sisyphus...I'm not sure if anyone noticed this in the ancient world, though. john k 19:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the Euripides reminder, I found the reference almost immediately. As to trying to make sense of the generations and geneaologies in the myths, well, I gave up on that long ago. Ande B. 23:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

For the most part, it's relatively comprehensible, and matches up fairly well, if only because later mythographers like Apollodorus tended to rationalize the schemes. But inconsistencies certainly do arise. john k 23:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Sisyphus is said to be Odysseus' real father at Sophocles Philoctetes 417. Don't have exact references for the Ovid or Euripides. --Akhilleus 20:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Odysseus

I recall that the etymology of the name Odysseus was said to be odyssesthai (Greek for hate) or something in this article. Why was this removed? If it was incorrect, does anyone have the etymology of this name?

I have changed man of constant sorrow to man of wrath as per Odyssey 19.408. Filiocht 13:58, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not clear why Greek "d" in Odysseus shows up as Latin "l" in Ulysses. I don't think this is a regular correspondence intervocalically, is it? Can anyone commment?

Probably from the Greek variants Ολυσεύς, Ουλιξεύς, Ουλίξης (Latin Ulysses, Ulixes, from Greek Oulixes, Olysseus, Odysseus) [1] --Odysses 18:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Delta changing in lambda is nonstandard, but ancient greek is full of exceptions, especcially when it's about Homer, who spoke a sort of dialect of his own. About the etymology, I found that verb οδυσσομαι means "to get angry", and the latin word "odium" (hate) shares its origin. This verb only has aorist of medium diatesis and the third person singular of perfectum (medium diatesis).

[edit] Odysseus in modern literature

Just wondering could this article bear a section on Od. in literature from, say, Dante on? If so, is anyone interested in creating this? I could add some stuff on Dante, Joyce, Pound and so on. Filiocht 13:36, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dante

Removed:

Interestingly, Odysseus is the only damned shade who is allowed by Dante to have the last word, as his speech ends the Canto.

This is clearly incorrect. Just to give two examples, Canto XXVIII ends with the words of Bertrand de Born, and Canto XXIX ends with the words of Capocchio. Ellsworth 23:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Sirens?

Why aren't the Sirens mentioned?--JW1805 20:10, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah Sirens could be one paragraph of the story yet no one put it in.

And after passing the Sirens, Odysseus and his men had to face Scylla (six-headed monster) and Charybdis (giant whirlpool) at the same time. (Book 12). 68.13.248.151 22:03, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

We just got done reading the Odyssey in class at school, and the sirens were in it, right before Scylla and Charybdis. So you need to put an article in here about it.

[edit] New Greek discovery: confirmed?

I just read an article claiming that the tomb of Odysseus has been found. See [[2]]

How can someone prova that it's Odysseus tomb and not someone other's one?

[edit] Odysseus during the Trojan War

This seems to be entirely missing. It says he is a major character in the Iliad so there should be something said about what he was doing during the Trojan War especially since he had the idea for the Trojan Horse.

• Agreed. I added a "During the Trojan War" section, to be expanded.--JW1805 18:46, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Odysseus didn't have the Trojan Horse idea: it was Epeius, as said on the main page.

[edit] Polyphemus - "another interpretation"

"In another interpretation, Odysseus knew that revealing his name would harm him; however his honor, or hubris compelled him to do so."

What interpretation is this talking about? There are countless stories of Odysseus lying about who he really is to people. I'm curious to see an interpretation where his "honor" prevented him. I commented it until someone includes the source of it. - Ravenous 21:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Didn't his hubris cause Odysseus to tell Polyphemus his name?

[edit] Some deleted text which needs merging

On 18:08, June 19, 2005, IP 206.248.156.184, deleted a section of this article which was called "Odysseus in the Trojan War". This deletion apparently went unnoticed by anyone, until I noticed it a few days ago. Subsequently a new section "During the Trojan War", covering some of the same material, has been written. I think there is content (and some better writing) from the deleted section which should be merged into the current one. At the same time, IMHO, a general rewrite of the section would be a good idea. For example, the last paragraph of the current section seems to have been tacked on to the end. It could be better incorporated better into the section, and in any case, is too long for a single paragraph. There are other things that need fixing, for example, the inconsistencies in references to the two Ajax's. I may get around to doing some, or all, of this myself, but… :-) Comments? Paul August ☎ 20:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The deleted section

Before the Greek fleet sailed for Troy, Odysseus, Phoenix and Ajax went to Scyros to persuade Achilles to join the battle.

During the Trojan War, Odysseus and Diomedes stole the Palladium (and King Rhesus' horses) in a nocturnal raid.

Later, with the aid of Athena, Ajax rescued the body of Achilles from the hands of the Trojans. In the competition between him and Odysseus for the armor of Achilles, the Trojan captives who judged the competition, at the instigation of Athena, awarded the prize to Odysseus. This so enraged Ajax that it caused his death (Odyssey, xi. 541). According to a later and more detailed story, his disappointment drove him mad; he rushed out of his tent and fell upon the flocks of sheep in the camp under the impression that they were the Trojan enemy; on coming to his senses, in shame he killed himself with the sword which he had received as a present from Hector. Little mention is made thereafter of Achilles's armour, so it presumably was lost when Odysseus's ship sank on his voyage home.

Odysseus never forgave Palamedes for sending him to the Trojan War (some sources date to approximately 1194–1184 BC). When Palamedes advised the Greeks to return home, Odysseus accused him of being a traitor, forged false evidence and found a fake witness to testify against him. Palamedes was stoned to death.

The Greek siege of Troy had lasted for ten years. The Greeks devised a new ruse - a giant hollow wooden horse (the Trojan Horse). The choice of gift may have been influenced by the fact that the Trojans were famous horse-breeders, as archaeology confirms. It was built by Epeius and filled with Greek warriors led by Odysseus. The rest of the Greek army appeared to leave and the Trojans accepted the horse as compensation for theft of the Palladium. A Greek spy, Sinon, convinced the Trojans the horse was a gift despite the warnings of Laocoon and Cassandra. The Trojans celebrated hugely and when the Greeks emerged from the horse the city was in a drunken stupor. The Greek warriors opened the city gates to allow the rest of the army access and the city was ruthlessly pillaged - all the men were killed and all the women taken into slavery.

• Ugh, the entire section could use a good re-write. The syntax is frightening and the organization is difficult. It sounds as if the contributor(s) had read the Illiad but are not familiar with other sources. It will take considerable effort to clean up something like this, though. If I get a chance, I'll give it a try. Otherwise, good luck. Ande B 04:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World of Biography link

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry

• probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jameswatt (talk • contribs) .

yes, I object. The link isn't informative. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah? 20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homer and a sequel

I have a question about this line: "because Homer intended to compose the continuation of the story and wanted room for improvisation." as I am fairly sure that the Iliad and the Odyssey were oral traditions, not the product of one man.

[edit] Helios' Revenge

Homer clearly states that all the men are killed by the storm before the ship sinks. But it says here that they all survive and die later... Fuzzibloke 08:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odysseus travelling the Atlantic?

The Greeks never used their word for ocean, "okeanos" to designate the Mediterranean, but only the words pontos, pelagos and thalassa. For the ancient greeks ocean meant exclusively "the river that surrounds the world" outside the mediterranean basin and the known world. The ocean "comes back on itself" (XVII,399 and 20,65) implying that it is subject to tides. There can be no doubt, because the word used, apsorro-os means "flowing back" or "ebbing", the movement after high tide. This word, which is also used for someone going back to Ilium (VII,413) as well as other indications led the Greek geographer Strabo to note that "Homer was not ignorant about the ebb and flow of Okeanos" and he concluded that several events described by the poet must therefore have taken place in the Atlantic Ocean.

This text is taken from Iman Wilkens book and to continue I will just name the locations he gives for all the places Odysseus went without much argumentation because that would take too much space and effort for now. Fasten your seatbelts:

Troy is Gog and Magog Hills near Cambridge;

Ismarus is in Finisterre, Brittany;

After that a storm blowing Odysseus cs. southward, the sails blown out, at the mercy of the wind and current which drives them to Spain. According to Cailleux Odysseus arrives in a bay on the north-west coast of Spain, near the town of El Padron, whose patron saint is San Iago (St James), who, according to legend,arrived by sea with twelve companions ( a reminder of the twelve ships?);

Two days later with strong wind from the north and strong current also to the south they fail to round Cape Malea, which is Cape St. Vincent, south west Portugal and thus failing to go eastward to reach Ithaca (Cadiz, Spain);

Further south by the storm missing Cythera (Morocco);

The land of the lotus-eaters is Senegal;

The land of the Cyclopes is Cape Verde Islands;

Then Following the gulf stream and favourable winds to: The Aeolian Island, which is Saba, Antilles;

The story of the winds, symbolizing this is not a favourable route back to Europe, and thus they are being blown back to the Aeolian Island;

After that following the right direction which is more to the north they reach the land of the Laestrygonians, which is Cuba (Havana);

With the gulf-stream and west-winds they now go to Aeaea, the island of Circe, which is Schouwen (province: Zeeland, town of Zierikzee, south-west Netherlands);

Than Odysseus has to go to Hades, which is Walcheren, one of Zeeland's islands, Zeeland being a province of the Netherlands;

Than back to circe;

After that the Tin-route; Sirens is The Solent (southern England);

Scylla and Charybdis is Mount's Bay, Cornwall;

Thrinacia is Land's End, Cornwall

Now southward again; Ogygia, Island of Calypso, which is St. Miguel, Azores (check vegetation and other characteristics!);

Scheria, Phaeacians is Lanzarote, canary islands;

Intermezzo: Delos is Veluwe-area, Netherlands;

Ithaca Cadiz;

All this, I repeat, according to Iman Wilkens; As you see there is not only a story but also directions for two important sea-routes: How to navigate cross the Atlantic, with locations of wind-stills, ruling wind-directions, direction of the gulf-streams and mentioning the most important archipels (Azores, Cape Verde Islands, Antilles, Canary Islands, Cuba) and on the other hand the tin-route to Cornwall, tin being an important substance for manufacturing bronze;

Believable or not, a fantastic theory alltogether in my opinion anyway

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Odysses" 212.123.163.102 22:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Trouble with this is that it's clearly wrong. Troy was not in Cornwall!Stratpod 22:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The above text posted on my User_talk by User:212.123.163.102, does not reflect my views on Iman Wilkens. --Odysses (☜) 08:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naive presentation as if a "biography"

This article needs documentation for its statements. so that they can be digested. I wouldn't apply one of those lazy bumperstickers, but a narrative that echoed its sources more closely would be more stylish and credible. --Wetman 01:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] landing at Troy

should it be said that Odysseus throwing his shield down is only told in some accounts. Some accounts say that Achilleus was the second person to land after Protesileus (others say he was the last to land), while others say Diomedes, ect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dondoolee 16:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC) • contribs) .

yes, but if we give these different versions, we need to say which authors they come from. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Authors as in more modern day authors from myth encyclpopedias and stories or Greek authorship? Greek authorship seems like it may be an almost impossable task in some cases. In most major mythologies, such as Odysseus, and the events in the Trojan War in general, there are many varied stories of similar events many of them with uknown authorship or from the oral tradition. In any case, am I wrong to think that version written in this article is one of the more obscure landing stories? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dondoolee (talk • contribs) .

Don't forget to sign your talk page posts by adding 4 tildes, like this: ~~~~

Greek mythology originates in an oral tradition, but it comes to us through sources that we can identify specifically, like the Homeric poems, various Greek tragedies, Apollodorus, Hyginus, the Suda, etc. It's not that hard at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Definatly the Homeric poems, but Hyginus and the Suda are kind of like encyclopedias on the myths written in A.D aren't they? Is Gustav Schwab or other more modern myth books and encyclopedias valid sources to site? Also should the writers of the tragedies be considerd differently and their stories put seperatly from the actual mythology? I honestly don't know. Dondoolee 16:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] suitor of Helen?

It is to my understanding that Odysseus wasn't a suitor for Helen, he proposed the oath to ease Tyndareus' fear over war for his daughter in exchange for Tyndareus' services to help Odysseus get Penelope is this correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.240.138.26 (talk • contribs) .

He wasn't a real suitor, he said he was one so he wouldn't have to travel so far to meet all the kings and leaders. --Soetermans 09:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] etymology from Iman Wilkens

I know that many people find the ideas of Iman Wilkens exciting, but his book does not meet Wikipedia's standards for a reliable source. Therefore I have removed this text, as this etymology is not supported by scholarship:

As the Odyssey can be considered a story of Odysseus going through successive stages of initation, another possible meaning of his name could be derived of Οδος-Ζεύς: Odos-Zeus, meaning: "the path to God".^[1]

--Akhilleus (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] duplication of effort?

Shouldn't sections 4 and 5 -- the journey from Troy and the arrival back in Ithaka -- be left to the Odyssey page? Perhaps, on that page, sections can be arranged to allow linking of descriptions back here, as needed? Jrmccall 00:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Odysseus stuff

There's this teletoon show named, Class of the Titans, which has a character, Odie, who, first, is a desendent of Odysseus, and one of the shows follows a close story of Odysseus. The Episode is called 'Odie-sey'. I was just wondering if it should be added or somthing. ;D Phantasmigorical 02:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)Phantasmigorical

...and Odie is also the dog victimized by Garfield. How would one introduce the concept of relevance for the very first time? Quite a challenge. --Wetman 13:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real or Fictional

After skimming through the article on Odysseus, it wasn't made clear to me whether Odysseus is a purely fictional character, whether he is based on a real person living back then, or if he was actually a real person. If anyone could clear this up for me, I'd be greatly obliged. --71.98.0.88 01:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I dont think anyone really knows...Phantasmigorical 18:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC) Phantasmigorical

[edit] Length of Travel

I thought the original text said that Odysseus travelled for 20 years, not 10. Is this true? --68.145.239.182 22:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, never mind. The War of Troy was also 10 years. Penelope waited for 20. --68.145.239.182 01:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About his name

In the etymology section this is stated:

"This interpretation is being reinforced by the fact that Odysseus hates the gods and he is hated by the gods."

That seems incorrect. Poseidon was furious at Odysseus, but he was greatly helped by Athena in the Trojan War and in his later travels. Hermes has helped him also, while on the island of Circe. According to mythology Odysseus was a descendant of Hermes and Zeus, so that he hates the gods and they hate them is a exagerrated. --Soetermans 09:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of name

I've always heard Odysseus pronounced exactly as described in the IPA bit of the article (or here), which is clearly 4 syllables. However, several other sources specify that Odysseus should always be pronounced with only 3 syllables. The only online one I can find is here (bottom of the 5th page of the PDF, "His name, “Odysseus”, is three syllables;"). I went looking for this online confirmation because this is the first time I've bothered reading the introductory notes of the Penguin Classic version I have and, lo and behold, it specifies 3 syllables.

What I'm trying to understand is: Is it untrue? Is this just a variation? Is it because Homer wrote in a dactylic hexameter, making a three-syllable word more "useful", maybe? And regardless of the reason, is it notable enough to be mentioned in the article?

Kayman1uk 19:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

In modern English, it's four syllables; in Homeric Greek, three. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Mythology

Can someone add the greek mythology sidebar? This article is already in the greek mythology catagory. The sidebar is on the right side of Jason, Theseus, and Oedipus.

It seems the other heroes like Hercules need this sidebar too.

Thanks

[edit] Twenty years of wandering?

Say, I haven't the foggiest idea on how to edit wikipedia articles and don't want to break anything, but I do note... the introduction states that Odysseus "is most famous for the twenty years it took him to return home after the Trojan War." This is not correct, his wanderings only took ten years. (of which seven spend with Calypso) The other ten years he was away from home were taken up by the Trojan War itself. Later on in the article there's another reference to his "twenty years of wandering" in the entry describing Joyce's Ulysses. Here's an article to confirm this, if necessary. Anyway, doesn't give a very good impression about the factual accuracy of the article. Should it just be changed to ten years, or should the sentence be amended so it does mention Odysseus was 20 years away from home, but only spend 10 years trying to reach Ithaka after the end of the war? Regards, 82.139.80.157 12:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC) Randal

Yep, 10 years of war, 10 years to get home = 20 years away from Ithaca. People keep on changing this figure, I'm not sure whether it's vandalism, or a well-intentioned but incorrect change. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)