Talk:Organisation de l'armée secrète

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	France Portal Organisation de l'armée secrète is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France and Monaco on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no Related task forces (nations and regions): French military history task force

Contents 1 General's Putsch 2 Alleged Gladio connexion 3 Islamofascists 4 Two vocabulary issues 5 Title & name: Organisation de l'Armée secrète 6 State of article

[edit] General's Putsch

What evidence is there that the CIA backed the "The General's Putsch"? The link to another Wikipedia article does provide any backing for that claim. From what I understand CIA involvement was alleged but evidence was never produced.

If I don't get a reply in a week I'll edit the sentance.

Lenbrazil 14:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged Gladio connexion

It states clearly in the text of the article that "no definitive evidence" has been found of Gladio involvement. If this is true why is the possible Gladio involvement mentioned? I don't think this meets the standards for continued inclusion in the article.

Bsirvine 12:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Well I think it can go too, because the Ganser source only says "In Algeria members of the French stay-behind and officers from the French War in Vietnam found the illegal Organisation Armee Secrete (OAS) and with CIA support stage a coup in Algiers against the French government of de Gaulle which fails," without giving any further factual information. Let's wait for User:Tazmaniacs before removing it though. Intangible 21:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islamofascists

I consider this article biased because of the use of this term, islamofascists, to describe the attacks on synagogues.

Furthermore, what does the term 'Islamofascist' even mean? The term Islamists, militants or armed groups can be used to describe the attackers.

Why specifically the term islamofascist has been entered into this article?

[edit] Two vocabulary issues

"Liberation group" seems to me an odd characterization. Is there a citation for that use?

Also, why is "farmers" linked to pioneers? - Jmabel | Talk 05:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Terrorists, resistants, liberation group ? How qualifying the OAS ? An emission of Arte TV ("les mercredis de l'histoire", if i remember) has showed video documents attesting of exactions against innocent arab civilians by OAS. They also threatened pied noirs which wanted to flee the territory, in order to not recognize the victory of ALN. The same document showed that ALN was not more moralistic. Resistants threat occupant militar goals inside their own boundaries. That's the generic definition. However, if you ask to ex-member of OAS, they claim they are resistants. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.88.218.237 (talk • contribs) 1 September 2006.

I take it that means, "No I do not have a citation calling them that, I just happen to like them and like the word." I will remove it. Someone beat me to it. - Jmabel | Talk 20:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title & name: Organisation de l'Armée secrète

Someone has claimed that the OAS stands for Organisation armée secrète and has made changes all over Wiki according to this. He is required to provide various reliable sources for this assertion, as the common name used by the press and history books is Organisation de l'armée secrète. Tazmaniacs 22:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm reverting the move now. — OwenBlacker 10:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but you're wrong. Real name is Organisation armée secrète. I made the same correction on french wiki some month ago. In doubt, I opened many books. All of them says Organisation armée secrète. I'm french and student in history, so I think you can trust me. Thank you. Jeanfi 07:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Jeanfi, but I think you misunderstood the request. I personally "trust" you, but that's not of much use here on Wikipedia. The point is that you most surely are correct, but it would be nice of you to present some reference, on-line &/or off-line, concerning this. The reason is quite simple: a quick search on-line will lead you to find many "Organisation de l'armée secrète" and very few "Organisation armée secrète" (for example: HISTOIRE DE L'ORGANISATION DE L'ARMEE SECRETE, BARNAGE MARTINEZ M., JULLIARD, 1964 [1]). As far as I know, French newspapers usually write "Organisation de l'armée secrète" ([2]: PIERRE CHÂTEAU-JOBERT, compagnon de la Libération devenu un des dirigeants de l'Organisation de l'armée secrète (OAS). As you see, it is quite easy finding reliable sources using "Organisation de l'armée secrète". Please prove us that Le Monde & co are wrong. Thanks. Tazmaniacs 20:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

You can see my note on french wiki. Larousse is one of the most famous encyclopedia of France. One other is the Quid. Look this note (end of page). You can also see an history book like the Dictionnaire encylopédique d'histoire by Mourre who write Organisation Armée Secrète (the book is open in front of me). Jeanfi 08:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

In front of the wide variety of sources which use Organisation de l'armée secrète (from Le Figaro to L'Humanité passing by Le Monde and Libération, not to mention Histoire magazine, etc.), Larousse is not a reliable enough source. Mourre is better; could you find some other reliable sources - from historians, not general encyclopedias or dictionaries, which are not that reliable (Wikipedia is not the only unreliable encyclopedia...) Thanks! Tazmaniacs 15:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but it's been over a month, and you have not provided sufficient sources. As said before, general dictionnaries like Larousse is not a reliable enough source. Mourre, which is a historical encyclopedia, is lot better. But still, the over-all usage in history books and medias is "Organisation de l'armée secrète". Wikipedia is not there to tell the truth to historians. If Mourre is your only source, it's not enough compared to the many others sources. Tazmaniacs 16:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] State of article

I've made some edits just now, mostly either to improve the English or to provide small pieces of context that will be useful to people who are not so knowledgable on France.

This is still quite undercited, and could use a lot of work, but I think in general it is much improved from a month or two ago.

One passage was a mess; I tried to fix it, but I'm not sure that I succeeded because it outright contradicts itself, both before and after my edits. Before:

Despite the OAS bombing campaign, the FLN remained resolute in its agreement to the ceasefire and on June 17, 1962 the OAS also began a ceasefire. However machine-gunning of public places by ALN in all areas of Oran and missings were reported in early July 1962 by remaining Pieds-Noirs witnesses, the Algerian authority granted the security of the remaining Europeans though.

After:

Despite the OAS bombing campaign, the FLN remained resolute in its agreement to the ceasefire and on June 17, 1962 the OAS also began a ceasefire. The Algerian authority guaranteed the security of the remaining Europeans, but in early July 1962, remaining Pieds-Noirs witnesses reported machine-gunning of public places in all areas of Oran by the ALN—the armed wing of the FLN, at the time evolving into the Algerian Army—and that people had gone missing.

I believe that this is equivalent and better put, but the two sentences still contradict one another. - Jmabel | Talk 05:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)