Talk:Parsifal
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
Parsifal has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. |
 |
This article is a part of the Opera WikiProject, a collaboration to develop Wikipedia articles on operas and opera terminology, opera composers, librettists and singers, directors and managers, companies and houses, and recordings. The project talk page is a place to discuss issues, identify areas of neglect and exchange ideas. New members are very welcome! |
Reverted and placed here for sourcing:
- Longinus pierced the side of Christ on the cross, and which was saved by Joseph of Arimathea
neither reference appear in any of the Wagnerian texts that I am aware of it. This is material of later commentator, and unsourced.
The section on Instrumentation strikes me as overkill, and it seems out of sync with the standard for opera articles. Are there any good reasons to keep it? Skiptog 20:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
- It doesn't look right to me either, for one thing it looks to small. nobs 20:12, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Actually I thought the instrumentation section added a nice touch which should be extended to other operas. But something has to be done about the plot, which is very old-fashioned and sometimes plain wrong - Monsalvat is on an inaccessible mountain is it ? - so how come Parsifal and Kundry can get there without any trouble? It's obviously not so inaccessible that Amfortas cannot get in a bath in the sea and still get back in time for the Grail ceremony. And Kundry is the "messenger of the Grail"? I think not! Dogbertd 15:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
- I like the instrumentation section too, but it seems a bit small. No referenece to the size of strings, for example. Also, I do not believe the Monsalvat reference occurs in any Wagnerian texts; it is drawn from von Eschenbach and other sources (like the Arimathea & Longinus references) and inserted here, as has happened over the past century plus. Personally, I feel it dilutes an understanding of Wagner's work and should be removed (clearly, Wagner intended Bayreuth to be the seat of the Holy Grail, not the Pyrennes, etc). nobs 17:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
- LOL! - How true! When I've got some time I'll make a start on revising the plot so that it refers more closely to things as they are in the opera, and without all the accretions from Eschenbach. In any case, I think the plot reads in a very old-fashioned way and this should be fixed. Dogbertd 10:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Very good recent edits. Perhaps an addition along these lines, in closing Parsifal states,
- "das Mitleids höchste Kraft
- und reinsten Wissens Macht
- dem zagen Toren gab.
translated something like,
- "that gave compassion's mighty power
- and purest wisdom's might
- taught the timorous fool!
thus stating compassion is learned, not inherent in human nature. Also, after the Nietsche-Wagner split, Nietsche expressed somewhere how sickened he was that Wagner, in his old age, was kneeling before the cross, etc. Good work! nobs 16:20, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Finally got round to replacing the original version of the Plot. I've tried to stick to what is in the opera, and nothing more. I hope this is better. --Dogbertd 09:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is much better without all the extraneous stuff. The only other thing I'd suggest (and it there's now need to hurry it) would be maybe a discussion somewhere, based on some of Wagner's own writings, of what I believe to be the heart of the whole drama, given in Kundry's words,
- Wahnsinn! -
- Mitleid! Mitleid mit mir!
- Nur eine Stunde mein!
- nur eine Stunde dein...
- und des Weges
- sollst du geleitet sein!
translated something like,
- Madness! -
- Compassion! Have compassion on me!
- For one hour be mine!
- For one hour I'll be thine...
- and the Way
- Thou shalt find!
which is more less the opposite of the carnal oblivion of Tristan and Isolde (finding "the Way" is scriptural language, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life..." etc; also, in Arabic al Sharia means "the Way"). This is a rejection of trying to find salvation in "the natural" or carnal nature, and really stands in contrast to much written about Wagner's personal life. nobs 14:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] recent changes
I like the addition of the premiere cast, but now we've got the first Met cast - which probably means that we'll also have to have the first Covent Garden cast, first Paris Opera cast, first La Scala cast, etc and the table will become unwieldy. As it stands the Met cast do not all appear to have full names (the voice from above was, apparently, supplied by Homer - who I always thought was a man) - do we really need to have any cast other than the Bayreuth premiere?--Dogbertd 07:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- I added the Met premiere cast (or what I could find of it) because of the historical signficance of that particular performance (first outside Bayreuth, violating Wagner's wishes and perhaps copyright). I'm not at all attached to keeping it though, I try to err on the side of including too much information. Fireplace 15:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
-
- I agree with what you say - the first US performance is probably significant in that regard, however I'm afraid that (like the list of recordings) this will simply expand from important premiere casts, to include everyone's favourite cast. I suggest we wait and see if it turns into a monster before we change it.--Dogbertd 07:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kundry a mezzo-soprano?!
Hello.
One of my goals in life is to play Kundry on stage. Seriously. I am a mezzo-soprano, and when I read that Kundry, too, was a mezzo. my heart filled up with joy. But is it true? She's not one of those opera parts that are extra high, like most Wagnerian opera roles, is she? Because if she is, my opera repitoire, sadly, will be reduced to playing "old lady roles", as us altos call them. Please tell me that Kundry's a mezzo.
Also, when you said that Parsifal wasn't influential to the Nazis, I had to laugh a little. If you google a bit, you'll find that it was the opera that influenced Hitler the most.
- I can't speak to the details of the score, but Meier and Ludwig have both sung Kundry, and they are mezzos. Fireplace 02:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
-
- Kundry is a role that lies pretty low in a Soprano's range, and has a few notes (esp "und Lachte!" in the 2nd act) which are high for a Mezzo, so I guess the only way you can know if you can sing it is to try - and good luck! I'd also be interested to know where there documentary evidence that Parsifal influenced Hitler "the most". An opera about compassion and overcoming one's desires doesn't sound like typical Nazi material - indeed if you look at the number of performances of Parsifal during the 3rd Reich, they fall away to nothing by abut 1942, because the Nazis thought that Parsifal had a "pacifist" message. Only Meistersinger was permitted. Hitler himself was more of a Lohengrin man, and by the end, preferred Lehar operattas to anything else.--Dogbertd 07:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Von Eschenbach's version
While Von E. does present blood-dripping spears, the object of Parzifal's quest in the original version of the tale is not Longinus' spear-- it's really readmission to the grail castle and the chance to ask the question.
The article at present states that Von Eschenbach's version is a quest for the spear. This may be due to clumsy editing or unfamiliarity with the original tale. But it's definitely inaccurate and should be corrected.
[edit] Reorganize?
I think that the current sections 3 (Roles) and 4 (Instrumentation) would fit better just before section 9 (References). The Roles and Instrumentation sections contain useful information to some but it is not needed by readers of the article as much as Plot and Criticism and Influence. Also, perhaps the last sections could be sub-sections of a new encompassing section like:
- Listening to Parsifal (with an introduction)
- Motifs (a new sub-section)
- Sound samples
- Recordings of Parsifal
- Instrumentation
- Roles
I was very tempted to just go and do this myself but I thought that someone that worked on the other Wagner opera articles and opera in general should comment. WikiParker 11:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- It would be nice to see how this works. I agree that the article is a bit disorganised in places, and perhaps this would help. Why don't you try it out, and if there's a huge chorus of disapproval it will be easy enough to revert.--Dogbertd 12:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Okay Dogbertd, I did it. My introductions to the "listening to" section and the "leitmotif" sub-section are terrible though. I just put them in as stubs for someone who knows more about Wagner and opera to fill in. WikiParker 22:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
-
- I think this works really well. The only thing I've done is to put the Roles back beside the Plot, since I think it helps to know who the characters are while reading the story. It would be good at somepoint to expand the Motifs section to identify the particular musical themes in Parsifal, however this may not be easy: Wagner's use of Leimotif in Parsifal is much more complex and advanced over his first attempts in Der Ring.--Dogbertd 09:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Is Parsifal a 'Heldentenor' or a 'Jugendlicher Heldentenor' role?
This question is being discussed at Talk:Fach. Opinions welcomed! - Kleinzach 10:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] GA Candidacy
The article is too long. Nominate for peer review. GreenJoe 16:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- The article is well written, broad in its coverage, the images are fine and there are no licence-problems. It seems stable and all relevant viewpoints are included in the criticism section. However, as stated above, some parts could be shortened, especially the 'composition' section slightly seems to go into excessive detail. The plot-part is not wikified yet. Please add some wikilinks to this section so that other editors don't feel the urge to check if it's a copyvio (it's not, I checked). Also, consider tightening the synopsis. The lead section on the other hand is very short compared to Wikipedia standards, even though it is still within the limits of our MoS. The lead should include a hint at the Bayreuth tradition in my opinion and the tradition of not applauding after the first act. Other than that, it's a good article.--DorisHノート 19:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Hurrah! And Thanks! I didn't understand the bit about adding Wikilinks to the plot (Synopsis). I wrote this myself from my transliteration of the libretto and hence it's not a copyvio (as you say): but what could I link this to?--Dogbertd 08:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
-
- I just placed some links in Act I, so you can see what I mean. There is more on internal links on Help:Links.--DorisHノート 10:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
-
-
- Gotcha. Thanks.--Dogbertd 13:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
-
Nice article, congrats to the people who developed this. Good to see another opera GA. Moreschi Request a recording? 13:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
