Talk:Patricia Crone
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Patricia Crone's scholarship has been cited as inherently bigoted and racist in a number of scholarly reviews. (added by 69.183.78.211
- Please cite sources to support this finding. Without sources, this looks much more like a personal attack in violation of wikipedia policy. Rklawton 03:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Wansbrough and "more sweeping"
I have just removed:
She was a student of John Wansbrough at SOAS in London and has been even more sweeping in her dismissal of Muslim tradition, arguing that even the Qur'an was likely to have been collected later than claimed.
I have been lucky enough to have personal correspondence with Patricia Crone and in-so-doing she has told me some problems with our article about her. Is she a biased source? Yes, but it does mean we should strongly source anything that contradicts her. She says that she was not a "pupil" of Wansbrough and even less so was Michael Cook. Could the error be that she took a course or something with him but never studied under him or, isn't his intellectual student? I agree the statement is incredibly vague and tends to imply a direct intellectual link. In any case it's removed until we clarify.
The next issue is that she is "more radical". This is an issue which we can't take at the same face value. She says that she is less radical because she doesn't date the Qur'an to as late of a date as Wansbrough does. He doesn't think the conquests are real--she does. He doesn't think there is a prophet--she does. That is more or less her words and she chalks it up to her being clear and Wansbrough difficult to understand. Honestly I don't know very much of Crone's work and even less of Wansbrough but we don't have any good scholarly sources backing up our previous claims. So, there we go. I will add some other stuff to Talk:Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World. gren グレン 15:13, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] More Crone
I have removed:
- In Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, Crone argues that the early Muslim converts turned to Islam because it promised an Arab state based on conquest, rape and pillage.
- "God could scarcely have been more explicit. He told the Arabs that they had a right to despoil others of their women, children and land, or indeed that they had a duty to do so: holy war consisted in obeying."
Why? Because of my e-mails with Patricia Crone (which, granted are not source material) and because of what the thesis of the book is. This is a peripheral statement made asserting that tribal societies that form states must coalesce around conquest to succede. Because the tribal society is very militant and the concept of holy war brought that unity to the tribal people. She explicitly felt that her words were being used to denigrate Islam which she states was not her intention and she doesn't like how it implies that is why the people converted (especially earlier conversions). It's simply an explanation for why there were conquests taken out of context and far from the main thesis if the book. And, the thesis is basically from what I can tell that we can't just assume that Mecca was on the trade routes just because it's assumed by so many people (on bad sources Crone would claim). We can't quote out of context and call it an explanation of her scholarship. I may attempt to read it and write something more representative about it. We shall see. gren グレン 01:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
