Talk:Paul Tillich

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Many Thanks to the anonymous contributor who added the excellent section on Tillich's theology on 26 February 2005. --Blainster 20:55, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are the concepts of 'essence' and 'existence' juxtaposed?

Contents 1 Criticism section 2 favor? 3 Beyond essence 4 A Fatal Pedagogical Error" 5 Paul Tillich and Calvinism

[edit] Criticism section

I moved the paragraph disputing Tillichs work to a separate section. This article is about Tillich, not his opponents, and their views should not be at the head of his article. --Blainster 21:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

That's certainly fair. KHM03 22:03, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I am not competent to make alterations. I am not sure this is right: "Following a line similar to Kierkegaard and almost identical to that of Freud, Tillich says that in our most introspective moments we face the terror of our own nothingness." As far as I know "nothingness" was not something Kierkegaard talked about, though the word of course comes up in some twentieth century thinkers who are called existentialists. Actually I remember statement by Tillich in the History of Christian thought that he considered himself a 50/50 existentialist/essentialist.

The criticisms section, like most such sections in Wikipedia articles, does seem rather out of place. If there is going to be such a section it should surely contain more criticisms, a summary of the main criticism of Tillich's thinking (constructive and negative), rather than just the views of a couple of chaps in a book which doesn't seem to be a serious academic study. What is meant by "protestant christian thought"? Theological liberalism?! The link is directed to "liberal christianity" which covers very many sorts of views. CSMR 12:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] favor?

I have just added a new section to Judaism and Christianity on "love." It is just a stub of a section, hopefully others will add more about the Jewish notion. But I know that my characterization of the Christian notion is at best wildly incomplete. Perhaps among the contributors to this page there are some who could go over it and add whatever additional material, detail, nuance, explanation they think necessary. I am very concerned about not misrepresenting, or doing justice to, the Christian point of view. I also added a long quote from Maimonides to the section on Heaven and Hell; in fact, I did a rewrite a week or two ago. I know the Jewish position is well-represented but again I am concerned that in the process the Christian view may appear misrepresented or at least underrepresented. So, I'd be grateful if someone checked and made sure the Christian view(s) are accurately and sufficiently represented. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Beyond essence

The quote from Tillich cited in the theology section says that God is "beyond essence and existence." This seems to contradict the second paragraph of the theology section which says that the ground of being is essence (and God, of course, is the ground of being). Someone, de-confuse me! And the article, while you're at it! --Rainada 04:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Well it would appear that the philosopher Sidney Hook shared in your confusion. In fact he seemed to think that this sort of confusion lied at the heart of his work as a theologian. --JimFarm 13:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Tillich's theology requires careful explication, and the current article is somewhat lacking in that regard. You are correct that many people are confused by Tillich's work, but that is often because they are relying on the descriptions by others who don't understand him, rather than reading him themselves. The reasons for the difficulties in talking about God have been discussed by countless theologians and sages over the centuries. Language is fraught with problems in attempting to express that which is utlimately unexpressable. For example when Wittgenstein addressed this issue in his 1922 Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus he was misunderstood by the logical positivists. He was not saying that mysticism did not exist, he said that it couldn't be adequately talked about. Similarly, Tillich was trying to say that God does not exist as a being, an object or category, but that God is being itself, beyond all categories or particularized conceptions. In this sense Tillich is an atheist, not because he does not accept God, but because he does not accept the traditional theistic concept of an anthropomorphized God. Those who have had the mystical experience of God can understand this, but it cannot be adequately explained to others. Christians have a similar difficulty in trying to explain their life in Christ to those who have not experienced it. And more mundanely, bicyle riders have difficulty explaining to those who have never ridden one how the rider "becomes one with the bicycle". --Blainster 17:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the reference to Wittgenstein is apt in terms of helping us to understand Tillich, and the different attitudes that people have taken to Wittgenstein's last proposition in the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" correspond, at least roughly, with the different attitudes that people have taken to Tillich. Thus, Frank Ramsey said of Wittgenstein's proposition, "If youcan't say it you can't say it, and you can't whistle it either."

And the logical empiricist, Otto Neurath, asserted:

"The conclusion of the Tractatus, 'whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent,' is at least grammatically misleading. It sounds as if there were a 'something' of which we could not speak. We should rather say, 'If one really wishes to avoid the metaphysical attitude entirely, then one will "be silent," but not "about something." (From his essay "Sociology and Physicalism". In Logical Positivism, edited by A. J. Ayer. Glencoe, IL).

My own inclinations are more to the views of Ramsey and Neurath, than they are to those of Wittgenstein, in his more mystical moods or Tillich. --JimFarm 02:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Fatal Pedagogical Error"

"A fatal pedagogical error is to throw answers like stones at the heads of those who have not yet asked the questions"

I have seen/heard this quote many times in articles and speeches and it is usually attributed to Paul Tillich. I have not been able to find it in his work, but I believe he may have said it during one of his lectures in Chicago.

Does anybody know the source of this quotation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Merryl (talk • contribs) 14:29, July 24, 2006 (UTC)

The quote is listed at a handful of sites on Google, but none of them cites a source. It does not appear in any of the 20 or so books and articles by Tillich at religion-online.org. --Blainster 07:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Tillich and Calvinism

I noticed Paul Tillich has been added to the Calvinism project. Since he was a Lutheran existentialist theologian, why was he added? --Blainster 16:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Was Tillich so much a 'Lutheran', or in actuality from the German Evangelical tradition (the union of German Lutheran and German Reformed churches in Germany)? My understanding was that he was brought to America connected with the Evangelical Synod of North America (the same denomination of the Niebuhr brothers), which subsequently became part of the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and then finally part of the United Church of Christ. Also, I suspect one could probably make the case that Tillich's influence was probably greater on moderate-to-liberal Reformed type folks (the United Church of Christ, moderate-to-liberal Presbyterians, etc.) than it has been on Lutherans. I will confess that I don't have much at hand in the way of sources/citations for any of this at the moment. Emerymat 15:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an interesting subject. According to Tillich's book My Search for Absolutes, his father was a minister in the "Prussian Territorial Church". Tillich distinguished between a Lutheran wing and a Reformed wing in the Continental Reformation. He says I was always at odds with the Ritschlian theology which establishes an infinite gap between nature and personality... When I came to America I found that Calvinism and Puritanism were natural allies of Ritschlianism in this respect. (p. 25) Over the next couple of pages he clearly identifies himself with the Lutheran, rather than the Reformed tradition: on Lutheran ground the vision of the presence of the infinite in everything finite is theologically affirmed, whereas on Calvinistic ground such an attitude is suspect of pantheism, and the divine transcendence is understood in a way which for a Lutheran is suspect of deism. I think these statements clearly separate him from the Calvinist tradition. --Blainster 16:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)