Talk:Pederasty in ancient Greece
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[edit] on a lighter note
I really have nothing to contribute other than this article sure puts a spin on the Monty Python philosopher song lyrics "Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle". 64.173.240.130 18:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Anonymous complaints
This article is very misleading, it makes it sound like everyone was homosexual, when in fact homosexuality was against the law in Athens and Sparta, pederasty was punishable by death. Why is that not mentioned in the article ? Who wrote this article ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.98.162 (talk • contribs) .
- And who posted the note, asserting that pederasty was punishable by death? --Wetman 02:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Both Aristotle and Plato's Laws unequivocably condemn homosexuality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.98.162 (talk • contribs) .
- That is a vague and misleading formulation, since Plato in the Laws was condemning anal intercourse with boys (please quote source for Aristotle). That is not inconsistent with his support for chaste pederasty in Phaedrus and the Symposium. It is also demonstrably false, since what is currently understood by "homosexuality" and what Plato wrote about are two very different things. Haiduc 09:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- I checked the article and noticed that some important material on opposition was removed when breaking out the article on Philosophy of Greek pederasty. I have restored the part about Plato's Laws. If you have other material that you feel needs to be quoted here please discuss. Haiduc 10:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
There are more homosexuals in the United States today than in all of Ancient Greece, and homosexuality was considered normal in Ancient Judaea and Jerusalem, which was the San Francisco of that time, and still is.
Wikipedia is packed with homosexuals, more than even Jerusalem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.98.162 (talk • contribs) .
This subject requires attention away from personal belief systems. There are several points to make with reference to the above:
Most Greek men expressed their bisexuality through this relationship. Please note that sexual intimacy itself was not frowned upon, if it was processed in the "correct" manner. Anal penetration was stigmatised, a citizen caught in the passive act would find himself in the courts. The reason? To make yourself a passive partner and allow yourself to be penetrated was mimicing the female sexual role. In a mysoginistic society this was a cardinal sin. For metics, or any other males, it was acceptable. The ideal pederastic relationship saw the young boy receive attention from an older male, he was meant to play "hard to get" and thus test the resolve and intention of the older man. The young boy would receive instruction from his older lover, and as such importance was stressed at the suitablility of him.
True the older lover was expected to house sexual motives, but they would not involve penetration. That was the "ideal" to what extent this happened is up for debate.
One theory is that this relationship took the place of the father/son relationship as there was a large age-gap between both. If you assume the average male married when he was expected to (around 30) and add to this that his son would be looked after mostly by his mother till the age of 7 it is possible that many fathers never really bonded with their sons. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scamander (talk • contribs) .
- I think in the West we are brought up in Judaeo-Christian belief system which is somewhat narrow minded when it comes to the subject of love. People fail to realize that words such as "Phila Delphia" once existed, which referred to loving someone as a brother or brotherly love. Is it not possible that the Sacred Band of Thebes were some of the closest of friends, who became so close through their living, fighting and suffering together that they saw and loved one another as Brothers? Where one soldier of the band would sacrifice his own life to save his Friends', so close was their bond? Or are we supposed to mindlessly believe that they were all penetrating one another? I think the perversion of modern Western thinking has changed the actual meaning of what the Sacred Band really was and the purpose it served. --Xenophonos 02:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Quite so. Yet most people now fall in line and obediently believe that male love in Greece was about "penetration" and about "dominance." It clearly was first and foremost about love. But, what kind of love? One based on the dogmatic denial of eros, or one honoring eros and also the bounds of moderation, as Philip Macedon implies? Carnal relations were often condemned or avoided, but that did not diminish the erotic nature of the relationship. It may have heightened it. The Thebans were subject to Greek ideals, not Judaeo-Christian ones. Haiduc 12:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Seminal matters
Removed this from text: Some research has shown that ancient Greeks believed semen, more specifically sperm, to be the source of knowledge, and that these relationships served to pass wisdom on from the erastes to the eromenos within society. Didn't find any sources. Haiduc 13:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think it was Bethe who mentioned that the man's arete (Αρετή) was believed to
- be transferred to the boy via anal penetration. I don't know for sure, but this may
- have also been the case with the ancient Persians.
- Dan Asad 06:41, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Evolution of pederasty
"Greek pederasty went through a series of changes over the millennium from its entry into the historical record and its final demise as an official institution. In some areas, such as Athens, the construction of the relationship seems to have gone from greater modesty in the early days to a freer physicality and lack of restraint in classical times, followed by a return to a more spiritual form in the early fifth century. Its formal end resembled its beginning, in that it came by official decree – that of emperor Justinian, who also put an end to other institutions that sustained ancient culture, such as Plato's Academy and the Olympic Games."
Does anyone know where i can find more information regarding the evolution of greek pederasty? This paragraph is all there is in the article. Thanks. (66.189.104.220 15:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC))
- There is little specific material out there, rather there are different presentations at different times, from Homer (Telemachos & Pisistratos in the Oddysey, not properly addressed yet in the literature) to pseudo-Lucian's Erotes, eleven or twelve hundred years later. Read Percy and Sergent. Haiduc 23:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Charioteers at Chaeronea
The article asserts that the Sacred Band of Thebes at the Battle of Chaeronea consisted of 150 warriors "each assisted by his beloved charioteer". Surely war chariots had been obsolete in Greece for at least three hundred years before Chaeronea (338 BC). Nor does any description of the battle mention chariots. My impression of the Sacred Band is that they fought as hoplites, with erastes and eromenos fighting side-by-side. If they used chariots, and if the eromenoi were charioteers, this remarkable fact ought to be supported by a citation.
Agemegos 03:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
