Talk:Police brutality

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[edit] Minor Non-POV Edit

I removed the parenthetical "(a convenient euphemism when the victim dies)" that was placed after the phrase "police brutality" in a misguided attempt to presumably clarify the phrase. The word "brutality" is hardly euphemistic by any stretch of definition, and claiming that it's "convenient" is patently non-NPOV. Further, there are many cases of alleged police brutality in which the "victim" does not die, rendering this whole definition useless.

[edit] More Edits

Removed "In most countries pussy is a branch of the national government. In USA police is a loose network of Police Departments of cities and counties, and no national police exists. FBI has narrowly defined area of activities, and it is not a national police. States have Highway Patrols, and some agencies of states have investigative powers e.g. in areas of health or environment protection. This local character gives American police a better chance to understand its role as servants of the society."

Ever heard of homeland security, federal marshalls, the FBI's cointellpro? The United States has the most widespread racist abusive police in the world. That hardly makes them "understanding servants of society".

From the FBI's website "We currently have jurisdiction over violations of more than 200 categories of federal law." That is hardly a narrowly defined area of activities as well "9. Support federal, state, county, municipal, and international partners." also from the fbi website.. Doesn't seem like so much of a "local character"

[edit] New Edits

Added reference to amnesty international 2005 report. Changed synopsis to reflect widespread police brutality in many nations including western democratic nations. Removed "Some instances where police brutality has become a political or religious issue' section due to left bias and relevancy

[edit] Value Judgements

This should have a neutral point of view. The "examples" of police brutality are subjective. It should be worded in a way to indicate that there is not a universal agreement about all of these incidents.Anomie666 22:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mumia Abu-Jamal

Can someone explain what Mumia Abu-Jamal has to do with police brutality before adding him as a see also link again? Abu-Jamal was convicted of murdering a police officer. I don't see what this has to do with brutality by police. Thanks. Rhobite 05:07, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you should learn who Mumia Abu-Jamal is before removing his name from the page. CPS 05:16, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I've been to Philly, and I've heard the story a few times. I'm pretty sure I know who he is. Are you suggesting that I've mixed up my convicted murderers? Rhobite 05:27, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

And to bring it back on topic, your sole reason for adding him to the page is that he (a) claims he saw Faulkner beating his brother, a claim that was disputed during the trial and (b) has written about police brutality. As I said, I don't believe either of these reasons warrants Abu-Jamal's inclusion in the article. Abu-Jamal isn't a victim of brutality. If we add him to the article, we may as well add every journalist who has written about brutality at some point. Rhobite 05:32, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Whether you believe his defense or not, Mumia is one of the most famous victims of police brutality since Rodney King. CPS 05:37, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- How in the world is Mumia Abu-Jamal a victim of police brutality? What type of a warped moral sense does it take to claim that Abu-Jamal is the victim while Daniel Faulkner lies murdered? Rhobite 05:46, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
  - Listen, I'm not going to argue about the Mumia trial with you. The point is that Mumia is an icon in the movement against police brutality, not that he's innocent. CPS 06:02, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

By the way, both the defense and the prosecution have accepted that Daniel Faulkner was beating Mumia's brother before the murder took place. CPS 06:09, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

- News to me. Any cites? --Calton 06:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

From reading through the article on Mumia Abu-Jamal, I see someone who may have been railroaded by the justice system. I do not see someone who's the victim of police brutality. --Carnildo 06:06, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I live in Philly and have read several different versions of this case and don't have a "certainty" that justice was or wasn't done in the conviction since neither side seems to have indisputable credibility, but no one seems to have been arguing that he was physically abused. I am not a criminologist but would ask CPS how broad his definition of police brutality is, and whether he doesn't think it's worth distinguishing a racist or unjust conviction, even a frame-up, from police brutality, which to most people means excessive physical violence in the conduct of their job. Can CPS be persuaded that the distinction is worth recognizing and maintaining? On the face of his comments, it looks like he is confusing unjust process with physical brutality. If the article were about Police misconduct, a broader category, he would have a stronger case for adding the name, along with acknowledgement that the case is disputed. alteripse 13:29, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Still waiting for some proof that "...both the defense and the prosecution have accepted that Daniel Faulkner was beating Mumia's brother before the murder took place". There isn't any, is there? --Calton | Talk 05:33, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Mumia's brother was being beaten by Faulkner. William Cook never made any claim of police brutality, nor did he even require hospitalization for his injuries. Instead, he plead guilty to assualting a police officer. It seems all the evidence points to Faulkner using the right amont of force to detain an unruly suspect.

Also I removed the link to the Kent State Massacre on grounds that it was commited by the Ohio National Gaurd, not the police.

Why is Luis Torres on the List?

Why is Halliburton listed?

[edit] Toward a more neutral point of view

I'm going to sort through the list of suspected cases of police brutality looking for citations. In addition, I think a little context (a sentence or two at most) for each case would be helpful. This will take some time.

My POV question: who decides whether a case is "suspected"? I think there should be a standardized minimum amount of confirmation before a case can be placed on the "suspected" list. Better yet, I think it would be better to redo the list so that it includes only cases in which officers were charged with a crime or disciplined by their departments. Let Copwatch and the other groups make lists based on whispers and rumors; Wikipedia's text should be verifiable. --Ginkgo100 13:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody has responded to this post in almost two months, so I am going to be bold. Comments are welcome. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · contribs · e@} 19:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category for police brutality

Do we have a category for police brutality or criminal prosecutions against police officers, e.g. in the Malice Green case? Apokrif 18:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] People removed from the "suspected cases" list

This is going to be controversial, so I am going to try to be as transparent as possible. Just because someone, somewhere, suspects police brutality is not sufficient to place a name on this list. The allegations must be verifiable. I am removing from the list the names of people whose cases meet none of the following criteria. People whose cases meet at least one of the following will be kept on the list.

Charges were filed against at least one criminal justice professional.
A law enforcement agency is currently investigating whether to file charges against at least one criminal justice professional.
Brutal treatment by at least one law enforcement officer is well-documented by at least one neutral source. (For example, Steve Biko's case.)

Please do comment. I would love to work toward consensus, but so far no other editors have responded to this effort. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · contribs · e@} 23:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of people removed from the article

These people's cases met none of the above criteria. Ginkgo100 ^{talk · contribs · e@}

Louie (Luciano) Arriaga [1]
Michael Bell [2]
Patrick Dorismond [3]
Byron Gillum. No charges filed. [4]
Jean Charles de Menezes. No charges will be filed after an investigation. As for the "well-documented" clause that would merit inclusion on the list, I submit this was a wartime action rather than a mere brutal act, and might merit a mention on a war atrocities topic.[5]
Tupac Shakur. He filed a $10 million lawsuit against the Oakland Police Department, but it was later settled for only $42,000 and no charges were filed. [6]

[edit] List of people about whose cases more information is needed

If you have any reliable references about the cases of the people on this list, please post them. I won't remove these names until I do a more in-depth search and other people have time to add notes. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · contribs · e@} 21:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

After re-reading WP:V, I have decided to remove names about whom more information is needed. I encourage any editor with a reliable source for any of these cases to add it back to the article with the citation. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · contribs · e@} 19:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Ida Lee Shaw Delaney, added 2006-08-07
Tony Cazares, added 2006-08-11 (Google can only find mirrors of this site)

[edit] Removing "suspected cases"

On further reflection, I don't think having a list of "suspected cases" is appropriate at all. A few notorious cases (Stephen Biko, Rodney King) might be included, but not a long list -- this isn't a memorial site. Since nobody except me has commented on this talk page in two months, nor touched the suspected cases list except to make unsourced additions, I'm going to boldy delete the whole list now. If anyone objects please speak up! I'm happy to come to a consensus, but so far there's nobody to come to consensus with. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · e@} 20:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

"Please do not remove content from Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.191.14.202 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Request for Comment

The issue is the list of "suspected cases" of police brutality. Before I began editing this article, it was an unsourced list. I began sorting through the list, citing sources in verifiable cases and removing unverified cases. During this time I asked for comments from other editors, but received none at all. After some reflection, I decided this list was unencyclopedic anyway. It seemed to be a "memorial" list, and seemed rather POV to me. This is evidenced by the fact that additions to the list are made with no organization or procedure, mostly by one-time IP editors, and generally neve sourced. Since I never got any feedback at all about my work on this article, I removed the list. An IP editor has now taken an interest and suggested that removing the list is vandalism, with no further constructive commentary. I am frustrated with the amount and type of response I have gotten, so I am requesting comments from other editors in order to reach a consensus about (a) whether the list should stay and (b) what should be included on the list if it does stay. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · e@} 16:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I am responding to the RfC. First, I am no one important, and my only goal here is try to assist in creating a quality article. I have not read the article in detail yet, nor the talk page, or reviewed the history of edits.

It is my understanding from the RfC that we want to try and focus on the "suspected cases" category. If anyone would like to add anything (that needs to be part of the RfC discussion), please put it here, or to a new section on my talk page. Atom 17:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've read the talk page and activity, as well as the article in detail. As a suggestion, do you think that we could start simply, and remove the references that do not have any citation or reference, and through a google search, do not seem to have any likely source of a reference? I hesitate to suggest removing some that may be valid, but the person adding it has just not found time to document it fully. By Wikipedia standards, they should not be there, but I would not want to lose them. Perhaps we can move all of these with no reference to this page, and (someone can) slowly spend time to weed through and find some kind of reliable source for them, and re-add them to the page when that is done? The ones with references, or citations, we can leave on the page and assume in good faith that there was some reason to put them there, and slowly work through them to verify the citations. Atom 17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I like the idea of removing the unverified cases from the list until they are verified. I believe I have done all the work so far on verifying these cases, but I stopped about a month ago to mull over whether to keep the list at all. If consensus is to keep the list, I'll start working on it again (hopefully with the help of other editors). As for the question of whether to keep the list: perhaps it could be changed to "selected cases" rather than "suspected cases." As I've said before, Wikipedia is not Copwatch nor does it need to include every possible or "suspected" case of abuse. I think it would be more encyclopedic to summarize a few of the most notorious cases. What do you think? --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · e@} 19:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that Ginkgo100's reasoning as explained in Removing "suspected cases" section is sensible. Why not just select few notable and confirmed cases and use them as examples. Additionally, maybe a mention of a case or few where police brutality was a false accusation woudln't hurt. And, maybe, some very controversial and undecided cases. Other than that, creating a full list of such abuses is probably impossible, so, beyond mentioning some cases as examples, I don't see a lot of use in it. Just my humble opinion. Poison sf 14:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References with no citations yet

These are here temporarily. Many of them can be moved back to the main page once we provide a citation to show verifiability.

Henry Dumas was an African American writer and poet who was shot and killed by a New York City Transit Authority Policeman in a case of "mistaken identity."
Eleanor Bumpurs was a 67 year old African-American grandmother who was shot dead by police trying to evict her from her apartment in a city housing project on October 29, 1984 after she made verbal threats against officers and slashed at them with a butcher's knife. "For months both the Department of Social Services and the Housing Authority were trying to reach her to see if something could be done to help her, but no one could get through to her," said Val Coleman, a spokesman for the city's Housing Authority. Ms. Bumpurs was liable for $89.45 a month rent and owed five months' rent. [7]
Gidone Busch
Patrick Dorismond was a Haitian immigrant who was killed by an undercover NYPD officer on the evening of March 15, 2000. The undercover police officer--who approached Dorismond and his friend because they were young Black men standing outside the Wakamba Cocktail Lounge--asked him where he and his partners could purchase marijuana. One of the officers, Anthony Vasquez, shot Patrick Dorismond in the chest after a scuffle. He later died from his wounds.
Carlo Giuliani
Carl Hampton (member of the Houston chapter of the Black Panther Party, killed by sniper fire in 1970)
Fred Hampton
Hiji Harrison
Rodney King
Stephanie Mohr (Maryland police officer sentenced to 10 years in prison for civil rights violations by unlawfully turning her dog on suspects)
Leroy Orange
Pedro Oregon
Roger Owensby, Jr
Phillip Pannell
Blair Peach
Fred Pyas (gay activist c.1980s in Houston, Texas)
Steven Roach
Daniel Rocha
Anthony Rosario
Sheryl Lee Seymour (mentally-impaired suspect shot by Houston Police officers in 1999)
Lester Siler
Victoria Snelgrove
Timothy Stansbury was a 19-year old unarmed New York City teenager shot and killed by an NYPD officer on January 24, 2004.
Timothy Thomas
Jose Campos Torres
Luis Torres
Liddle Towers was beaten to death by police.
Otto Vass (Toronto, Aug 9th 2000)
Randy Weaver
Jeffery Turner
Randall Webster (suspect in a high-speed chase from Shreeveport, Louisiana ending in Houston, Texas)
Cao, Xianqing (Chinese immigrant killed with execution style shot to his temple)
Ousmane Zongo was an African arts trader from Burkina Faso living in New York City. He was shot while unarmed in a chance run in with police during a warehouse raid on May 22, 2003.
Battle of the Beanfield
Dongzhou protests of 2005
Estevan Coal Miners Strike, Sept 29th 1931
Halliburton Shareholders Meeting of 2005 in Houston, Texas
Paris massacre of 1961
2004 Republican National Convention, in New York City
Tompkins Square Park Police Riot: In August 1988, a riot erupted in Tompkins Square Park, New York City, when police brutally attempted to enforce a newly-passed curfew for the park. Bystanders, artists, residents, homeless people and political activists were caught up in the police action that took place on the night of August 6th and the early morning of August 7th.
WTO Ministerial Conference of 1999
29th G8 summit - police officer caused a person to fall 20 meters and receive serious injuries; includes a link to video of the incident.
The Bonus Army marchers of 1932
The Stonewall riots in 1969

[edit] Criteria for inclusion

What should the criteria for inclusion in the list be? I suggest am open discussion to determine the criteria, and then gain consensus.

Previously suggested has been:

Charges were filed against at least one criminal justice professional.
A law enforcement agency is currently investigating whether to file charges against at least one criminal justice professional.
Brutal treatment by at least one law enforcement officer is well-documented by at least one neutral source. (For example, Steve Biko's case.)

Atom 18:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

In my personal opinion, I can agree with #1, #2 and #3. For #1 I wonder what is the definition of "charges". Is an official hearing sufficient? Or do they need to be criminal charges? How about non-criminal charges? Atom 18:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was talking about criminal charges. A police officer might violate department policy but not the law, for instance, or there might be accusations but insufficient evidence for criminal charges. Anyone can file a lawsuit for anything, so civil charges (lawsuits) are not a good criterion, in my opinion. Here's another question: if an officer was charged, tried, and acquitted, should the case be included? This would eliminate the Rodney King and Steve Biko cases if it weren't for #3, which is why I included it. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · e@} 19:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I am thinking that we have strong consensus on direction, and no disputes. I think we can close the RfC, what does anyone else think? Any objection to that? I will still participate after we close it. Atom 12:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no objection to closing it. This is my first RfC; is it usual to close it after only three days? --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · e@} 02:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

We can leave it open as long as you want. Normally once conflict is resolved, and people are on the same track, it is often closed. There is no hurry though.

Three days is fairly short. In this case, no one came forward with a conflicting opinion. It is usual to only get a couple of people who chime in. In other RfC's I have helped with, it can be quite awhile until participants come to some consensus. Atom 12:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Final consensus

So let's reach consensus, so to speak, on the consensus. Poison_sf and I seem to think the best course would be to list a few of the most notorious cases by way of illustration. Instead of calling it "suspected cases," it should probably be called something else. Perhaps simply "Selected cases," and within that the section, a subsection of "Widely acknowledged cases" and one for "Controversial cases." It should be crystal clear, too, that these are provided by way of illustration, not for the sake of creating an exhaustive list, and therefore new additions should first be proposed here. Is this agreeable to other participants? --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · e@} 20:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, your suggestion of changing it to "Select cases" or "Selected Cases" seems sufficient to me. I think people can decide for themselves (assuming they are cited) the importance. So, I would not see a need for sub-sections. Atom 22:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A European case

I am adding Benno Ohnesorg, whose shooting at a protest march was a defining political event of the postwar era in Germany and Western Europe. Wulfilia 14:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with this as long as a citation is provided. This can be a book, a reliable history website, etc. The reason is that this list previously contained a lot of uncited and POV additions, and a lot of effort has gone into making sure it contains no uncited entries. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · e@} 15:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the entry, for future reference, upon citation.

Benno Ohnesorg, a German university student, was shot dead by police officer Karl-Heinz Kurras during a demonstration in Berlin on 2 June 1967. Kurras was charged with manslaughter but acquitted.

See citations:

Nick Thomas, Protest Movements in 1960s West Germany: A Social History of Dissent and Democracy (Oxford: Berg, 2003).
Jurgen Seifert, et al, "Defining the Enemy of the State: Political Policies of West Germany" (1976) 8 New German Critique, pp. 42-53.

Wulfilia 13:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rodney King

Definitely belongs on the list, but I have procrastinated on adding him because I can't find a good source online. It's too old for news stories and the other sites are mainly very POV. The Rodney King article cites a book, but I haven't had a chance to go to the library to find it for this formality. Anybody have a cite? I feel like it would be intellectually dishonest to just cite the book from his article without actually looking at it first. --Ginkgo100 ^{talk · e@} 21:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I searched for his name in Factiva and I got several thousands of results, which I didn't save because I could only send 100 articles at a time to my e-mail address. Can you tell me exactly if you're lokking for something specific? (please answer on my Talk page so that I don't miss your answer). Apokrif 22:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article organization

I'm doing some research to improve the overall article, and I would like to reorganize it. I'm not proposing removing any substantial text, just moving it around to present better, more focused flow. I'm thinking of the following sections:

Incidence — victims, prevalence, perceptions of brutality, media coverage, and contents of the current politics and human rights sections
Investigation
Causes and prevention — would also include community response

This would be followed by selected cases and etc. --Ginkgo 100 ^talk 21:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

this is a much better organisation that the previous set up. Good job, you managed to create the concepts that I couldn't even put into words!!SGGH 16:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The next, much more challenging task will be to root out the weasel words rampant in this article. --Ginkgo 100 ^talk 20:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Why is there a right side portal for everything about "Abuse?" Doesn't anyone else think that this categorization is random and ambiguous?

I mean, "Abuse" is a pretty encompassing term. "Psychology," "Politics," or "Physical science" would be more appropriate, but really, none of these articles related to abuse are related in any other way.

And using the word Abuse usually entails Of, like, Abuse of power, abuse of drugs... Abuse alone is pretty bland for a side panel topic.

I'm removing it. If someone wants to put it back up, I don't really have the patience or time to fight it, but I think it's pretty stupid.

68.55.180.24 20:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] There

I put it down in "See Also." I think that makes a lot more sense.

68.55.180.24 20:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cases list.

I still think this list is not appropriate to the article. If nothing else, it violates NPOV due to the undue weight of a lengthy list of cases. Per peer review, I propose to select several representative cases and include only those. A link to Category:Alleged police brutality, or a new article List of alleged cases of police brutality, should be included.

In selecting cases for the list, I think the "hundred year" test would apply -- will this case make the history books 100 years from now? I would include the following:

--Ginkgo 100 ^talk 21:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of comments, I plan to implement these changes after January 1, 2007, assuming my real-life time restraints allow it. --Ginkgo 100 ^talk 22:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The list, again.

User:BoxingWear has asked me to post here about the case s/he would like to add to the Selected Cases list regarding Angilo Freeland. I still believe that we should subtract from the list, not add to it, because of concerns of notability and undue weight, but provide a link to a list on a separate article. Other opinions? --Ginkgo 100 ^talk 20:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I created List of cases of alleged police brutality and linked to it. I hope having the new article and cutting the list on this article is acceptable to others, but please comment here if not. --Ginkgo 100 ^talk 20:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

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