Talk:President of Germany

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[quote] There is disagreement about whether the president, in fact, has greater powers than the above description would suggest. Some argue that nothing in the Basic Law suggests that a president must follow government directives. For instance, the president could refuse to sign legislation, thus vetoing it, or refuse to approve certain cabinet appointments. As of mid-2003, no president had ever taken such action, and thus the constitutionality of these points had never been tested. [/quote]

I seem to recall that I was teached in school that if the Bundespräsident refused to sign something into law he must step down from his post and a the a new one would be elected. In that way giving the präsidend no real veto power. Hexren

I never heard of this. A quick google search for grundgesetz and bundespräsident didn't give this info, either. -- till we *) 11:09, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It definitely is not the case. However, if the president would refuse to sign a law just based on his personal opinion, that would probably lead to a major crisis. The normal way is for the president to get advice from constitutional experts if he deems a law unconstitutional. In that case, he may or may not sign it. In most cases, he will sign it and at the same time encourage a revision at the contitutional court. There are only very few cases in which a president denied signing a law, and for the reason of deeming it unconstitutional (either because of its conetents, or because he believes there have been violations in the formality of passing it). Normally, there is little choice for the president, especially if the law is controversial: if he signs it, the opposers will appeal to the constitutional court, if he refuses, the supporters might try to make him sign it (by sueing him at the contitutional court, I believe). --Flosch 22:54, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Article 65 GG, sentence 1: The Chancellor determines the guidelines of policy and bears responsibility.

The president has no right whatsoever to refuse a law simply because he's not an advocate of the policy that's behind it or because he doesn't agree with it. His only functions are: 1. to check if the making of the law is constitutional (e.g. he has to refuse it when the vote in the Bundesrat is not Ok etc.) and 2. to check if the content of the law is constitutional, that is, if it does or does not harm the law stated in the Grundgesetz. Unfortunately there's only a German source for this: Wolfgang Rudzio: "Das politische System der Bundesrepublik Deutschland", p. 296, Wiesbaden 2006. According to this, there were only six cases in which the President actually refused to sign. -Bundesamt 16:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 1933-1949 2 Never Reichspräsident, reverted Edit 3 Parties 4 Merger of Reichspräsident with this article 5 Hitler 6 German States and Heads of states!!!

[edit] 1933-1949

The article currently says that existed during the Weimar Republic (1919-1933) and is the successor to the office of Reichspräsident ("Reich President") that existed during the Weimar Republic (1919-1933). What happened between 1933-1949? Even if one argues that the office did not exsist between 1933 and April 29 1945. It did exist on April 30 1945. Philip Baird Shearer 11:58, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There was certainly a Reichspräsident from 33-34 (Hindenburg). While Wikipedia currently says that Dönitz was Reichspräsident in a couple of articles, I have never before heard of him being referred to as such. Rather, I've always seen him called simply "Head of State". Columbia does not refer to him as such. ([1]). Britannica sort of does. In some sense, both Hitler and Dönitz held the office of Reichspräsident. Neither was normally styled as such. I'm not sure how this is to be indicated. It is certainly wrong, as the list linked from this page now does, to say that Dönitz was the third Reichspräsident - he was either not Reichspräsident, or Hitler was too. Obviously, there was no German government between 1945 and 1949. john k 17:33, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hitler was became "Führer und Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler" at six O'clock on the morning of August 2, 1934, according to the article Gleichschaltung point No. 8. In Hitler's political testament they were separated again (See Chancellor of Germany#Reichskanzler. (See also the articles on Allied Control Council, End of World War II in Europe and Hitler say the same thing but they are derived from a November version of President of Germany and Chancellor of Germany#Reichskanzler amoung other sources. There is of course the legal question if Hitler had the power to recreate the office. But if not de jure, de facto Karl Dönitz was Reichspräsident --Philip Baird Shearer 19:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not to denigrate the Wikipedia, but I don't think other Wikipedia articles can be used properly as evidence of anything. I'd like to see a, well, book that talks about this issue, or that calls Dönitz Reichspräsident. john k 20:00, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Quit right ask for an original source:

In German [Adolf Hitler Politisches Testament] "ernenne ich als Führer der Nation folgende Mitglieder des neuen Kabinetts:

Reichspräsident: D ö n i t z

Reichskanzler: Dr. G o e b b e l s

Parteiminister: B o r m a n n

English translation of Adolf Hitler's Final Political Testament "I appoint the following members of the new Cabinet as leaders of the nation:

President of the Reich: DOENITZ

Chancellor of the Reich: DR. GOEBBELS

Party Minister: BORMANN"

--Philip Baird Shearer 20:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I'd suggest that we remove the numeration entirely, since the question of whether Hitler was Reichspräsident, or merely held the powers of Reichspräsident, seems up in the air, and the ordinals don't really give us any additional information. john k 17:14, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hitler was not Reichspräsident, sure he was head of state, but his title was "Führer (und Reichskanzler)" not "Reichspräsident (and Reichskanzler)". There is nothing unusual about this. When Oli was Head of State in England, he was not "King Oli" he was "Protector and major killjoy"

I can not find a document for you which explains this on line, but I can prove it to you in a round about way. As you will be aware the German army oath of allegiance was changed so that Officers who took their oaths seriously were caught like flys on fly paper. This change took place on August 2, 1934 (the day Hitler became head of state). If Hitler had still been Reichspräsident (or if the office had still existed) then the Oath would have had to included it, because not to do so would have allowed the Officers a way around the wording of the oath. But it did not. It used the word Führer. The Army Enslaved --Philip Baird Shearer 20:05, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's not at all the same as Cromwell, though. In the Third Reich, the Weimar Constitution (providing for a President) was still officially in operation, and Hitler explicitly took on Hindenburg's powers in 1934. The word Führer was certainly the one used, but in all essential respects the Führer was the Reichspräsident. The latter office had been subsumed within the larger office of "Führer". This is different from Cromwell, who was operating under a completely different political system than old Chucky I. john k 21:34, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Weimar Constitiution was not officially in operation see Third Reich#Chronology of events Gleichschaltung, Reichstag Fire Decree and the Enabling Act. If you disagree with this then find a source which says that Hitler was officially Reichspräsident or that the Weimar Constitiution was officially in operation until June 5, 1945 (creation of the Allied Control Council). Because if you do we will have to re-write much more than the sequencing on the Reichspräsident in these articles!

BTW the full name of the Enabling Act was the "Law to remedy the misery of the people and the country" which sounds like a title of a Levellers pamphlet! Philip Baird Shearer 23:15, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In terms of the enabling act - indeed, the Weimar Constitution was put out of operation. But it was done constitutionally - that is to say, Germany's constitution was still the Weimar Constitution. It just was suspended for an indefinite period of time. But I wasn't clear. In terms of Hitler as Reichspräsident, I wasn't saying that he was Reichspräsident, exactly. Just that he incorporated within himself all of Hindenburg's powers, meaning that the role of Führer in some sense incorporated the role of Reichspräsident. At any rate, all I'm asking now is that the awkward ordinals in the other article be removed - it just seems weird to say that Dönitz was the third Reichspräsident. john k 03:53, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I suggest that that is a something to be discussed on Talk:Reichspräsident. I am going to copy a few paragraphs to get us started Philip Baird Shearer 16:34, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Never Reichspräsident, reverted Edit

This is the text of the German wikipedia about Reichspräsident: unmittelbar nach Hindenburgs Tod übernahm Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler auch das Amt des Reichspräsidenten (durch Volksabstimmung vom 19. August 1934 bestätigt), ersetzte den Titel "Reichspräsident" jedoch durch "Führer";

Means: direct after the death of Hindenburg, Hitler took over the office (Reichspräsident). Confirmed by plebiscite of 19th August 1934. He changed the title "Reichspräsident" into "Führer".

That is the reason for the reverting of the IP edit. --Gabriel-Royce 14:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parties

Given that, as the article states, Presidents in the Federal Republic are required to be non-partisan and drop their party affiliations, is it right to have parties and party colours featured on the list of Presidents? 172.215.89.16 01:44, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merger of Reichspräsident with this article

I created Reichspräsident as its own article about a year ago. This was merged with this article by an anonymous user and I restored it as a separate article about a month ago. Serø has now merged it again so I've undone the merger a second time. The reasons I think Reichspräsident deserves a separate article from this one (which should be about the modern presidency, known in German as the Bundespräsident) are the following:

• With the merger, the article becomes unwieldy and gives too much prominence to the Weimar office when most people will come here for the modern office. It is normal practice to spin off a section when an article becomes unwieldy and even if Reichspräsident had not originally been separate it would now be a prime candidate for spinning off.
• The offices of Reichspräsident and Bundespräsident are separate offices, from separate eras with entirely different constitutional roles and powers.
• The German Wikipedia has the two offices as separate articles and those guys seem to know what they're talking about.
• There are many precedents for this kind of treatment of historical offices on Wikipedia. See, for example, the separate articles on Taoiseach and President of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State, both of which were basically the prime minister of Southern Ireland.

Iota 20:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Reichspräsident is not an English word. The title used in all English language sources is "President [of Germany]". If you want to write in German language, do that on the German language Wikipedia. Besides, it's highly manipulative to cut off parts of the history. An article with the title "President of Germany" needs to deal with all Presidents of Germany. If it is too much stuff (which it isn't at the moment), some stuff could be moved to separate articles that elaborate on issues like "functions of the President of Germany from 1919 to 1934" etc., however "President of Germany" being the main article must provide an overview of the history of the office since its establishment in 1919 in any case. Donnog 22:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Donnog - there's no reason not to cover both Weimar and BRD in a single article. john k 04:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I've introduced an attempt at a reasonable compromise and I hope people will consider it with an open mind. I've replaced the Weimar section with a large summary and a "Main article:" link. This means the information isn't hidden away and there is a much greater impression of continuity between the two offices. However it also means that people looking for information about the presidency as it now exists (which means most people) don't have to wade through a lot of obscure historical stuff. I also think some changes can be made to the Reichspräsident article to address some of the concerns raised (we could also discuss renaming it if using a German term is really that objectionable). So what I've implemented is a partial, rather than a total merger. If this still isn't satisfactory by all means lets discuss the matter further. For now I just want to respond to a few of the points above.

If you want to write in the German language, do that on the German language Wikipedia.

I'm aware that this is the English Wikipedia. The reason I use the German word Reichspräsident is because it's a convenient way of distinguishing between the two historical offices. On reflection I agree that after introductory remarks it might be best to stick mainly to the term president or President of Germany. But English sources do mention the fact that the Weimar office had a different German title when contrasting the two offices. In any case if there is a better way of doing this then lets discuss it.

Besides, it's highly manipulative to cut off parts of the history.

I'm honestly baffled by this. I don't have an agenda and I hope you don't either. My only interest is in organising the encyclopedia in a logical and accessible way. The only reasons I favour a two article approach are those I've given above. Please remember to assume good faith.

I also don't think you can fairly say I'm trying to 'cut' things out. How this all got started is that I noticed that the German Wikipedia had an article on the Weimar presidency containing a lot of information not on the English Wikipedia. So I created an equivalent English article. For this I used entirely fresh information from both the German Wikipedia and my own study of secondary sources. I did not 'cut' anything out of the English President of Germany article. Since then all I've been trying to do is preserve Reichspräsident as its own article. If I had an agenda to censor information about the Weimar presidency I would not have created a large article about it in the first place.

Anyway I just want to set the record straight on these points about motives rather than get into a fight. It's more important to have a constructive discussion.

Iota 15:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I've just edited Reichspräsident to, among other tweaks, replace most of the use of the German term with president and President of Germany. Looking at it again the German term was being overused. Iota 15:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler

Why is Hitler not on the list of Presidents?

Because he wasn't President but Leader. The Emperors are not on the list either, for the simple reason they were Emperors and not Presidents. Donnog 14:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hitler was a President, but a not vor long time. He became the Führer. --88.64.57.176 15:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Reichskanzler that was his title after the election of 1933--Gabriel-Royce 16:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC) And Reichspräsident after the referendum of the year 1934 (19 August).--Gabriel-Royce 22:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German States and Heads of states!!!

You are messing around a bit.

Germany as Nation State had severel legal forms with changing borders and offices:

The Deutsches Reichs reigned by the Kaiser (emperor) between 1871 and 1918. (Monarchy) The Deutsches Reich also named the "Weimarer Republik"(Reichspräsident between 1918 and 1933.(Republic) The Deutsches Reich or Third Reich (Drittes Reich oder Tausendjähriges Reich) of Hitler and the NAZI's.(Dictatorship) The Deutsches Reich ended with the Allied victory and the dicissions of the allies. Instead there were now two new German States: West-Germany =Federal Republic of Germany (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) and East Germany = Deutsche Demokratische Republik (German Democratic Republic) 1989/90 both states were reunificated (German reunification) The new state took its name, flag and signs from West-Germany also the law. So you got six different political systems between 1871 and today. In consequence you can't say the President of Germany! You could name the article German head of states or you have to change it into several articles. For ex.: The presidents of the Federal Republic of Germany, and another one Presidents of the German Reich or so. It is totally wrong to say something like this the President of Germany (Bundespräsident, formerly Reichspräsident). It is not the same office, because Reich and Federal Republik of Germany are not the same states! You wouldn't say England while talking about Great Britain, would you. Or King instead of Queen. --Gabriel-Royce 16:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we should make President of Germany a disambiguation page for Reichspräsident and Federal President of Germany? That would require more input from native English speakers, though. Kusma (討論) 16:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, you've seen it. Yes that is a possible change for the future of this article.--Gabriel-Royce 16:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)