Talk:Primate (religion)

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Is the Archbishop of Lyon's status as Primate of France secure? I ask this because Lyon was not part of France, but of the Kingdom of Arles, until the later middle Ages. I'd have thought the Archbishop of Reims was the traditional Primate of France, or at least would have had a claim to the title... john k 20:58, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've been trying to find out who the Primate of France is...I've created Archbishop of Paris and Archbishop of Reims, and I'll get to Lyon later, but in the process of doing this, I have seen all three referred to as Primate of France. (All three current ones, I mean, in addition to various times throughout history.) Adam Bishop 02:00, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What a mess. Perhaps one is the Primate of All France, and another is the Primate of France...I believe the Archbishop of Lyon is actually Primate of Gaul...The Catholic Encyclopedia, by the way, gives Lyon, Reims, Bourges, Vienne, Narbonne, Bordeaux, and Rouen! (but not Paris). Lyon and Vienne are now merged, and Narbonne and Bourges are no longer metropolitan sees, but that still leaves Lyon, Reims, Bordeaux, Rouen, and Paris as potential primates! Germany is weird, too. I know that Mainz was the primate before 1801, but Catholic Encyclopedia also gives Trier and Magdeburg as possibilities. And post-1801, none of those work - Magdeburg is no longer a diocese, and Trier and Mainz are not metropolitan sees anymore (not sure why not for Mainz - why would you make Freiburg a metropolitan see when you have the grand old see of Mainz in the same ecclesiastical province?). For Spain, Cathen lists Toledo, Santiago de Compostella, and Braga (which is in Portugal). Supposedly, at the first Vatican Council, the only folks recognized as primates were Salzburg (of Austria?), Antivari (of ?), Salerno (?), Bahia (of Brazil), Gnesen (of Poland), Tarragona (of Spain? of Catalonia?), Gran (of Hungary), Mechlin (of Belgium), and Armagh (of All Ireland)... This, I think, is the problem with informal titles. john k 05:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The limited recognition of primates that you cite was for precedence purposes. There were other primates at the First Vatican Council, but since they were cardinals they took their precedence as cardinals, who have higher precedence than primates. The bishops of those other sees cited (such as Ledóchowski of Gnessen [1]) were not cardinals at the time of the council and had to be placed somewhere, so they were recognized as primates and took their place after the patriarchs. Thus, the list of recognized primates at the First Vatican Council is not necessarily the complete list of primates. Pmadrid 8 July 2005 14:28 (UTC)

Suggest that the primates mentioned before the new title "Honorary," be moved there. I suspect there will be a bunch of them eventually.Student7 03:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional

I don't understand from the article that any of the titles of primate are "official." The article seems to differentiate between various levels of fiction. Some that were "historic" and therefore less fictional than the others? Why bother to differentiate?Student7 00:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)