Talk:Prime lens

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[edit] Prime lens vs. fixed focal length lens

I've read that the term prime lens to mean "fixed focal length" (rather than a zoom) is a (relatively) recent adoption, and that some people don't like using it this way. They say a prime is the major lens attached to a camera, to distinguish it from any attachment lenses such as teleconverters, etc. So you could have a zoom lens as a prime lens, for instance. They would use the term "FFL lens" to mean what this article calls a prime lens. People who know more about photography, is this usage sufficiently widespread to make it worth adding to the article? --Bob Mellish 16:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Bob, I've never heard the term prime lens used this way. Prime is a FFL lens, calling zoom lens a prime would be confusing. Teleconverters are usually referred just as teleconverters or extenders (without the word lens), and most of other attachments (i.e. extension tubes, filters, etc.) are not lenses at all. Azov 22:11, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with this alternative meaning of "prime lens" either. If you can find a relevant, verifiable source that uses the term differently, then the source can be cited and a note added to the article. --MarkSweep✍ 00:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find a reliable source. The discussion I was reading is here: [1] (refers to a WP article, which is why I noticed it), and it's clear the person making the distinction has something of a bee in his bonnet about the terminology. Anyway, it's pretty clear that prime = fixed focal length is the dominant meaning nowadays. --Bob Mellish 01:04, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Can anyone point me to someone calling the lens on a fixed-focus, non-zoom lens on a P&S a "prime lens"? If you believe FFL = Prime, then you could. Azov, I consider losing the true meaning of "prime lens" (which is "primary lens" not "best lens" as if it were graded meat), is something that should not be taken lightly. We already have terms for "zoom" and "FFL." We also need to differenciate between the primary lens and converters that are attached to them--which is where "prime" rightfully comes in. Don Williams 23:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I re-worded the statement pending verification. Could somebody find a reliable source confirming that it indeed is a "true meaning" (or at least that the term has ever been widely used in this sense)? Azov 02:02, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

"Prime lens" has been used to mean the camera lens, as opposed to some other lens used with it (such as a close-up lens or tele converter), for at least 50 years that I know of. That is long before zoom lenses were in general use and therefore long before there was any need to coin a term meaning fixed focal length (FFL) to distinguish non-zooms from zooms. The misusage started more than 10 years ago to my knowledge, and was probably the result of someone seeing "prime lens" used in reference to a lens that just happened to be FFL, who then wrongly assumed that's what it meant. I am not aware of any camera maker ever using "prime" in lens literature to mean FFL. Certainly Minolta and Nikon have not. There are, however, several lens makers who catalog variable prime lenses (i.e., prime lenses of variable focal length) and use exactly that term, "variable prime," to DISTINGUISH these lenses from FFL lenses. These lens makers include Zeiss, Schneider, Century and others. One of many sites listing variable prime lenses is here: http://www.lucamera.com/2000/variable.html

Since it is obviously confusing if the same term is used to mean fixed focal length AND variable focal length, the misusage should be avoided, notwithstanding its current popularity. "Prime lens" is correctly used when "prime" is taken in the sense of "primary," "chief," "original," "first in order," etc., which are all dictionary definitions for the word "prime." It makes no difference whether the prime lens is FFL or zoom; one is just as much prime as the other. There is NO dictionary definition for "prime" meaning fixed focal length, or fixed anything else. Jack Falstaff 03:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conforming to Wikipedia policies

Jack & Don, thank you for pointing out the alternative meaning of the term. If you could provide a link to the catalogs you mentioned (preferrably published on a lens manufacturer website or, say, a major photo store, or something of this sort) - I think it would be totally ok to remove the disputed flag.

As to the references to "true" or "correct" meaning of the term - I don't think there's an established authority to assert correctness in this field, thus such references are unverifiable and may not be included in Wikipedia articles. The same goes for our guesses about why most photographers nowdays use the term "prime" as a synonym for "FFL": it's just a guess, and we have to stick to the facts. Azov 19:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is a catalog that correctly calls a zoom lens a variable prime lens

http://www.cinequip.com/Category_detail.asp?Category=Lenses

Don Williams 21:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"Correctly" is a value judgment Wikipedia is not meant to make. Talk to any dictionary compiler, and they'll tell you that there's no such thing as "correct" - what matters is being understood, and a dictionary is supposed to be descriptive of language as used, not prescriptive.

Whether or not the term "prime" originally meant a lens directly attached to the camera body, rather than a supplementary conversion lens - this use is obsolete in the still camera field. Nobody or almost nobody uses the word in this sense in the recent period - at least 20 years. Thus, the definition of a prime lens as a fixed focal length lens is the operative one.

If we can document this alleged older definition sufficiently, it is worth mentioning as well, but it cannot be described as 'correct'. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Matthew, because many people say "bad" to mean "good", should we change all Wikipedia entries to reflect this? A source material should not always cater to the lowest common demoninator. Don Williams 20:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

May I recommend a compromise? I can think of two options.

(1) We could make this page a disambiguation page, and move the present article to fixed focal-length lens or whatever is the proper wording.

(2) We could adjust the intro paragraph to reflect the changing usage of the term. How about something to this effect:

In film and photography, the term prime lens is commonly used to refer to a photographic lens whose focal length is fixed, as opposed to a zoom lens, which has a variable focal length.

Although the term originally referred to a lens directly attached to the camera body (as opposed to a supplementary conversion lens), regardless of whether or not the focal length varied, usage has changed, and what was once called a "variable prime lens" is now generally referred to as a zoom lens, and the term "prime lens" reserved for a fixed focal length lens.

etc etc

Choice (2) seems like a good compromise to me. Don Williams 19:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

2 sounds good for me. I'd ideally like some more sourcing to show more use of 'variable prime' historically, and to see if it was ever used for still cameras (all the examples I've seen have been for movie). It would be nice to find how far back the use to mean solely a fixed focal length lens has been in use - I suspect over 20 years. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)