Talk:Primitive Irish
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According to the consensus at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ivernic language, I merged the content from Ivernic language. --Deathphoenix 03:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Old Arguments Re-Forming???
Primitive Irish is Old Celtic in character ... It is barely recognisable as Irish. I doubt the former, and the latter is incorrect! Can anyone show a link to where this idea was obtained? Also: It is likely that Primitive Irish was an extremely conservative formal, ceremonial register of the language used by the learned and religious class of pagan Ireland, the druids. However, as Ireland converted to Christianity, the druids and their rituals and teachings were marginalised, replaced by a new language of learning: Latin. No longer restricted in its scope for change by the conservative druidic register, the vernacular register of Irish changed rapidly and radically. I think this, and the Ivernic stuff, is all as result of people confuseing all this with the Iarnbearla of the poets. Irish has being spoken in Ireland for at least five thousand years. No one has yet come up with any definitive evidence of any pre-Irish languages. Fergananim
And no-one is attempting to in this article. Primitive Irish is Irish, the direct ancestor of the modern language, but hadn't developed most of the distinctive characteristics of the modern language such as broad and slender consonants, initial mutations, consonant clusters etc. Transcribed ogham inscriptions look like Latin, Greek or Gaulish (without the letter p). All languages change, and the evidence is that Irish changed unusually quickly following the conversion. I will expand the article and try and make it clearer.
In any case, there's no way Irish has been spoken in Ireland for five thousand years. It's an Indo-European language, and Proto-Indo-European is barely that old. There must have been pre-Irish languages, we just can't say for certain what they were.--Nicknack009 07:33, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
On the first paragragh, okay. However, it is recognisably Irish - and by that I mean the earliest written forms, found on Ogham stones.
As to the second .... Well we'll just have to revise what we know of Indo-European then, and how our language fits into it. Because I genuinely believe that while there indeed may have being pre-Irish languges here, Irish - or its ancestral forms - has being spoken here for a very, very long time. Long before the first thousand years B.C. at any rate. Fergananim
- Do you have any evidence for that, or do you just believe it? --Angr 05:31, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sure. Let me get back to you on it. Personally? I am inclined to believe it, but am open to the suggestion that I may be wrong. Maybe I should be more strident! "No, I AM RIGHT!!!" Nah .... My position is to try and get to the truth, even if it means abadoning positions of my own in the face of facts. Fergananim
There are conflicting theories as to when the Irish Celts arrived in Ireland. I've seen everything from 350 BC to 1,000 BC. 5,000 years doesn't seem possible, however.Celsiana 03:15, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Cite your source for Irish having been spoken in Ireland for at least five thousand years, a claim which seems implausible, to say the least, on the basis of the linguistic evidence. CecilWard
[edit] speed change
No longer restricted in its scope for change by the conservative druidic register, the vernacular register of Irish changed rapidly and radically."
But one is comparing the Old Irish to a very archaic, and possibly very old form. We know from subsequent gaelic history, the offical orthography and written forms to by anywhere up to 8 centures behind speech. Is it not more likely the chnages in irish (lention/eclipsis, first phonological, later morphological) occured at a slower place, but only entered the historical record later? Sure, cultural upsets, such as the changes in leadership around 500-600AD to the classical Gaelic Septs (O'Neill, O' Rourke etc) may have increased linguitic chnage, but alingining it with the introduction of christianity etc is only constructing a dubious argument.
Also, the broad/slender distinction was accompanied by a 'neutral' set of consonants in Old Irish, and this continued even into the modern period in some places, however, it had lost its phonetic import perhaps in the late OI period. Why not argu it too existed in the primitive irish state? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.93.5.45 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
- It's hard to be sure whether there were really three sets of consonants in Old Irish; AFAIK most modern scholars believe there were actually only two: the same broad and slender sets as in Modern Irish. At any rate, the above claim certainly needs to be sourced, as it sounds like amateur speculation without a source. User:Angr 13:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 3 sets of consonants
Hi, twas me who wrote about the 3 sets due to a confusion after reading a paper by possibly Ní Chasáide (its a long time ago, but will try to find reference), comparing Irish and Russian phonology, where a comment is made about a 'neutral/plain' set of consonants. If I find the original, I can re-read it and get some clarity on the issue.
[edit] Triple consonants
Thurneysen, "A Grammar of Old Irish", (page 113-114, section 182 in my edition) makes mention of a third set, but adds they were not of "etymological" significence. They were lip rounded consonants, both it seems they were never phonemic.
[edit] Confusing
The letters V <-> B often interchange. For example, compare "Hebrew" which is rendered "Ivri" in the Masoretic texts. Thus, Iverni <-> Iberni, easily explaining the Roman references to Hibernia. So, I wonder if we don't ultimately have the "word evolution" of Iberni -> Iverni -> Eire -> Ireland. Lastly, there are Irish myths of Milesians coming from Spain (=Ibernia).... this could easily explain the origin of Iberni / Iverni.
THIS IS CONFUSING... OLD IRISH = Q-CELTIC, GOIDELIC TONGUE... BUT IVERNIC = P-CELTIC. Why does "Ivernic" article redirect to "Primitive Irish", when they are unrelated, save for the fact that Ivernic (P-Celtic) may have given Old Irish a couple of "iron-speech" loan words? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.235.44.73 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
- "Ivernic" redirects to "Primitive Irish" because this is the article where the "Ivernic" hypothesis is discussed. It used to have an article of its own, but Wikipedia editors decided to merge the information to this article, because there's not enough to say about this hypothesis (which is not particularly widely held) to warrant an article of its own. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Ivernic language. —Angr 06:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
As use has been made (in fact, you've basically quoted me in a few places) of my article "Ivernian Heritage: The Érainn and Their Legacy" (currently being revised, and thus black text on black background), it should be cited as a reference, as it was in the old talk page of the "Ivernic Language" article: http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/Biocrawler:Votes_for_deletion/Ivernic_language
The link to the current version of my article is here: http://groups.msn.com/CromansGrove/ivernianheritageversion5.msnw
I hope to have the revised version ready soon.
Croman mac Nessa 03:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Since nobody seemed to want to take action regarding possible violation of my copyright as noted above, I've added the citation that was "needed" and noted my article in the References. I've also reformatted the text colour on that one page, so it is now visible, but added the note at the top that the article is currently being revised. I did the research, five and six years ago, and if you're going to use my work, it should at least be acknowledged, whatever you may think of my religious and/or political views. Croman mac Nessa 21:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- You can see what the old Ivernic language article looked like here, just click on the date that interests you. Talk:Ivernic language is still as it was. I had a quick look and I can't see a mention of "Ivernian Heritage: The Érainn and Their Legacy" in the history. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- Check the VfD page linked at the bottom. The material in the page I gave the link for above (http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/Biocrawler:Votes_for_deletion/Ivernic_language) was quoted from my website, and links were included. That is an independent record of the Ivernic Language VfD talk page; I remember seeing the VfD page myself once when doing a search on AOL for "Ivernic." I didn't mind the brief quotes because I was cited as the source (in fact, I was rather pleased to be used as a reference), and the quotes were brief (thus falling under Fair Use as long as proper attribution was noted, as it was), so I said nothing at the time (and I did not have an account with Wikipedia at the time anyway). What I find disturbing is that my work has been taken without permission or attribution. If people are going to reference my work, that fact should be noted (and the final paragraph from the "Possible external influences" section of the article *is* from my work, slightly paraphrased and rewritten a bit, with one additional quote from Sanas Cormaic; likewise, the first paragraph is primarily derived from my work). For the references to my article, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Ivernic_language Croman mac Nessa 00:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hallo, Angus. I've replied to your comments on my Talk page in the same place. However, I notice when I go to the Primitive Irish Language article (or when I go to the link for "Ivernic Language" which redirects to the Primitive Irish Language article), even on another computer which hasn't been there (and so does not have the older version in its cache), that the "citation needed" link is still present and that my article is not included in the references. After refreshing, it appears as I have edited it, with the link to my article in the body of the text and my article included in the references. Will this be resolved any time soon? Croman mac Nessa 10:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Final sentence - Contradictory?
I removed the following sentence here for discussion:
- It is difficult to argue from two words, but it could be that Ivernic was the language spoken in Ireland before any Indo-European languages arrived.[citation needed]
I have many problems with this sentence. First of all it is completely unsourced Original Research. Secondly (and the main reason I removed it), it contradicts the rest of the section. The section says that "Ivernic diverged from Gaulish". Gaulish was a Celtic language and, as such, is itself an Indo-European language.--WilliamThweatt 01:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Difficult to recognise .. as Irish" - should be removed
I recommend that the comments that Primitive Irish is "difficult to recognise as a form of Irish" unlike Old Irish which "is recognisably Irish" should be removed, since they are vague, and are personal opinion (difficult for whom?). Difficulty is relative and personal. Of course, the author rightly points out that Primitive Irish does not clearly show some of the developments that came to characterise later forms of Irish, so there is clearly an important point to be made here about the very different character or PI. 80.176.79.109 07:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Great Britain
Great Britain contains England, Wales and Scotland.
Britain contains only England and Wales.
The 'Great' before Britain is in recognition of the addition of Scotland or Caledonia!
In the historical discussion of languages, it is surely more appropriate to use 'natural geographic terms and not 'political geographic' terms.
Eog1916 21:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Err, no. Britain == Great Britain == big island between Ireland and the Low Countries. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The big island is called Great Britain ever since Britain and Scotland were united by the (1707) Act of Union. Scotland is now part of Great Britain, but not part of Britain ( England and Wales)! e Acts created a new state, the Kingdom of Great Britain, by merging the Kingdom of England (and Wales) and the Kingdom of Scotland. The two countries had shared a monarch since the Union of the Crowns in 1603, but had retained sovereign parliaments.Eog1916 12:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- It has been Big Britain, when anyone has cared to distinguish it from the other one, ever since Armorica became Little Britain. And the Kingdom of Great Britain came into existence in 1707, not 1603. John Mair, who died long before 1603, never mind 1707, wrote a book on the history of "Greater Britain" (Historia majoris Britanniae, tam Angliae quam Scotiae, 1521: predictably, the Welsh were ignored). Long before that Welsh confabulator Geoffrey of Monmouth and English historian Roger of Wendover distinguished "Britannia minor" and "Britannia major" when discussing the legendary settlement of Armorica. Nothing happened in 1603 of any relevance to this article. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Dear Angus, I wrote 1603 in error of course I ment 1707 when I wrote "The two countries had shared a monarch since the Union of the Crowns in 1603, but had retained sovereign parliaments". That John Mair wrote his famous book probably accounts for the name Great Britain being adopted by the King as the name of the united kingdoms....but the name 'Britain' alone was not adopted you will surely notice! Perhaps you could postulate why not? What about Scotia major and Scotia Minor? Eog1916 19:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Initial section Needs expansion
This article bad needs a proper first section on actual Primitive Irish itself, as it hardly discusses the character of Primitive Irish in any kind of depth before immediately whizzing straight _past_ this period to get on to discuss its development into Old Irish.
MacManus's "Guide to Ogham" and McCone's "Towards a Relative Chronology" would be a place to start. Any volunteers willing to help out? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CecilWard (talk • contribs) 13:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
