Talk:Prince of Wales

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The Old Pretender was never created Prince of Wales during his father's actual reign in England. Perhaps that should be changed john 02:25 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)

He was "styled" Prince of Wales from birth, though. Deb 20:37 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

I thought that while the heir to the throne became Duke of Cornwall on birth, he actually had to be created prince of wales. I suppose we can say that while he wasn't created PofW, he was treated as such. ÉÍREman 21:31 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Well, if he was styled as such, I suppose that's alright. Perhaps we should dsitinguish between those who were actually Prince of Wales, and those only styled as such. Were either the future Henry VI or the future Edward III ever styled Prince of Wales? john 21:41 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

It's very difficult to say what was going on in those early days - the title was a novelty then, and didn't become automatic till the later Middle Ages. I don't know if there's a hard and fast rule now as to when the title kicks in, but there certainly wasn't one in the period we're talking about. I think the Hanoverians liked to make their sons Princes of Wales as early as possible because it usually got them an extra financial allowance from parliament. If I remember rightly, the present queen announced that Charles was going to be Prince of Wales about ten years before he was actually invested. Deb 21:44 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

But until then he was Duke of Cornwall. Similarly Prince George was Duke of York and remained so until created Prince of Wales by his father, Edward VII. ÉÍREman 21:49 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, but we're talking about two people who weren't born the sons of monarchs. And George V's creation was delayed because his mother, Alexandra, had enjoyed being Princess of Wales so much that she was reluctant to give up the title even after she became queen (!) Deb 21:52 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Here's my understanding. The eldest son of the monarch automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Prince and High Steward of Scotland. (whew!) Someone who is heir-apparent, but not son of the monarch (such as the future George III), does not get these titles.

The titles of Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester, by contrast, are acquired by specific creation by the monarch. Thus, the present Prince of Wales was only "HRH the Duke of Cornwall" until he was created Prince of Wales in 1959 (or 1958?). It is created for any male heir-apparent, usually. This has been the case at least since the Hanoverians. I'm pretty sure the Dukedom of Cornwall and associated titles have always worked as they do now. It would seem that in Stuart times, at least, princes were styled "Prince of Wales" without actually being created as such. A distinction ought to be made, I think. john 22:01 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

I can't remember where I originally got the list of Princes of Wales from, but I believe it's the "official" version. I would go and check www.royal.gov.uk if I wasn't too tired. At any rate, the list doesn't include people like Edward III who were never called Prince of Wales even though nowadays they would have had the title. Deb 22:05 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

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I'm a late entrant to this discussion. Charles may have been Duke of Cornwall, but he would never have been referred to as "HRH The Duke of Cornwall" edcept in some very specific context. He is a Royal Prince and the heir apparent, so his royal Highness stems from that, and any other titles he may have had prior to becoming Prince of Wales were subsumed into his Princedom.

Re the reference to Diana losing her style HRH when she divorced Charles. I doubt that this had anything to do with him being Prince of Wales. Again, he was HRH from birth as a Royal Prince, and he remained HRH when he became Prince of Wales. Diana may have been the Princess of Wales by virtue of being married to the Prince of Wales, but her style HRH would have applied by virtue of his Royal Princedom, whether he was also Prince of Wales or not. I think this needs to be fixed. Cheers JackofOz 12:52, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There is a picture of Charles in the souvenir programme for the coronation of Elizabeth II which is titled: "HRH The Duke of Cornwall". Bbombbardier 14:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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What about sons of the Prince of Wales? For example, William, Prince of Wales and his young brother Henry, Prince of Wales are currently styled "Prince of Wales" even though none of them are currently "the oldest son of the monarch". None of them are obviously the "Duke of Cornwall" or somesuch, nor styled as such. Is this styled used wholly incorrectly? —Gabbe 16:42, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

• Prince Charles's sons ,William & Henry do not have the title Prince of Wales, only their father does. William is called Prince William of Wales & Henry, Prince Henry of Wales, Example: Prince(ss) (name) of Wales means the person is the Child of the Prince of Wales. Another similar Example: Prince Andrew ,Duke of York. His daughters Beatrice & Eugenie ,are called Princess Beatrice of York & Princess Eugenie of York (daugthers of the Duke of York), neither girl are Duchess of York.

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"But unlike other elements of the Garter, the Princedom of Wales can be bestowed upon the eldest son of the sovereign and nobody else. If a Prince should predecease the Sovereign, the principality does not pass on to his heirs; instead, it revests in the Crown."

Is this a hard and fast rule? George III was Prince of Wales despite being George II's grandson and some books indicate that this was entirely due to political demands on a reluctant King. If Charles were to die before the Queen many would suggest conferring the title on William - what is there to stop this? Timrollpickering 22:50, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If Charles dies then Elizabeth dies, doesn't Prince Andrew become King? If that's so then I should think Andrew would be a more likely Prince of Wales than William, in the event of Charles's death. JamesMLane 06:26, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

No it's William as next in line. Again the precedent is George III - eldest son of deceased eldest son succeeding, not the monarch's eldest surviving son. (And also Andrew succeeding will cause a lot of uproar over the male bias in the succession.) Timrollpickering 08:00, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually an earlier precedent is Richard II, grandson of Edward III. His father (Edward, The Black Prince) was the kings' eldest son and predeceased him. The crown passed down to the grandson, not to any of the surviving sons. --StanZegel 23:59, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I always assumed it worked the other way. Your reply prompted me to read order of succession, which gives the impression that, in every hereditary system referred to, William would come ahead of Andrew. (The systems appear to differ only in whether female descendants are completely excluded, completely equal, or included but with inferior rights.) Do you happen to know whether any common system, for hereditary monarchy or lesser titles of nobility, would give Andrew precedence over William? JamesMLane 10:04, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Not sure, but didn't the Manchu Emperors pass strictly from one generation to the next, often going to nephews/cousins once removed? Timrollpickering 19:54, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Apparently Queen Elizabeth II was never Princess of Wales, and this seems to be because of her gender. However, I had to study the article carefully before coming to this conclusion. Could some royalty expert please add a note to the article about female descendants, just to make the issue clear?

Only an heir apparent can be Prince of Wales. Elizabeth was only heiress presumptive - had her father had a son, she would have been displaced in the succession. john k 22:40, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Henry, the short lived 2 Non-NPOV edits 3 No change in order 4 King's son's son 5 Responsibilities

[edit] Henry, the short lived

This little fella was never PoW right? It's on vfd at the moment... Dunc|☺ 12:33, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• If you mean, Henry (1511), the shortlived eldest son of King Henry VIII & Queen Catherine (of Aragon), then I think he was PoW. Mightberight/wrong 0:38 ,14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Non-NPOV edits

A number of anonymous users and user:Cardiff have edited this article, and made it less 'Welsh.' This includes removing the Welsh princes from the section "The Princes of Wales, past and present".

The edits began on 18:20, 25 April 2006 86.112.253.144.

This is a violation of WP:NPOV, IMO, and seems to be part of a pattern, making such non-NPOV edits to a number of prominent articles about Wales.

I am planning to revert the entire batch of edits to the previous edit by Grouse. All comments are welcome.Econrad 19:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Having looked at the edits, I agree with you, and so I have reverted to the last version by Grouse, as you suggested. Proteus (Talk) 20:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No change in order

The paragraph reading "However, Elizabeth II has changed the order of succession by making it gender-neutral" is not accurate. The queen has not changed the order of succession to remove male primogeniture, and in fact she doesn't have the power to, as succession is determined by Parliament. Succession to the British throne tells us that the current rules come from the Act of Settlement in 1701.

Corrected. An attempt was made to change the line, through a Private Bill (which would have needed Royal Assent), in 2005. The attempt was unsuccessful.HarvardOxon 04:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King's son's son

The Heir presumptive / Heir apparent section appears to imply that the King's grandson (whose father is dead) can never be Prince of Wales - is that right? Morwen - Talk 20:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This can't be true; for instance, George III was Prince of Wales when his grandfather was king. Warofdreams talk 02:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

If this "heir apparent" status is really the guiding principle, it implies that a women could accede as Princess of Wales. For instance, if their father was the monarch's oldest child, they were an only child, and their father died, then they could not be displaced in the order of succession by any possible birth. Warofdreams talk 04:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If the daughter of the king were the king's only child, and the king died, then she would be queen, not princess of Wales.HarvardOxon 21:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, but that's not what he said. Proteus (Talk) 20:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Responsibilities

I am curious as to what the legislated responsibilities of the Prince are or are not as an aspect of the Monarchy and regard to his role representing the state. I think it is particularly interesting with respect to his actions that have called the impartiallity of the monarchy into question on the BBC and elsewhere. Can anyone provide more information on this? There's all this stuff about the history of who had it when, but what are the actual responsibiities of the holder of this title to the public, if any? Are there laws imbedded in the UK Constitution regarding this position, or does only the monarch have legislated responsibilities? Sandwich Eater 20:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I answered my own question with a web search that hit the Prince's web site. http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/rol_index.html

He has no formal responsibilities but he has self-imposed 3 responsibilities which he believes he can conduct without undertaking a political position. Sandwich Eater 21:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

He has some formal responsibilities e.g.

- As Duke of Cornwall he has some feudal rights that in the rest of England are retained by the Head of State e.g. right to recieve any unclaimed property when someone dies (which he gives to charity). - As a Counsellor of State he acts on behalf of the Queen when she is abroad to meet foreign dignitaries, give Royal Assent etc. - He has the right to be consulted on some Scottish matters, although technically this is not because he is Prince of Wales but rather as he is Duke of Rothsay. - He may attend the State Opening of Parliament and he may sit on the steps of the throne in the House of Lords during debates.