Talk:Pro multis

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[edit] NPOV

I have marked this with the NPOV template. Look, I'm not terribly well informed about this subject, so I can't say for sure, and I certainly can't rewrite the article myself, but many statements in this article strike me as tendentious, straw men, or otherwise POV. For example:

• Subsequent to Vatican II, in the New Mass of Paul IV, the words pro multis have been rendered pro omnibus with the deliberate intention of signifying the Universalist heresy, and based on the claims of a German Protestant scholar, Joachim Jeremias.

  (It seems highly unlikely that Vatican II changed the mass with the "deliberate intention" of signifying any heresy.)

• The claims of Joachim Jeremias, that Christ used for many to signify for all because there was no word in the Aramaic language for all were debunked by the Catholic Traditionalist scholar and apologist Patrick Henry Omlor.

  ("Claims" and "debunked" are rather biased words. Not to mention that it would be absurd to argue that any language had "no word for all", so this is probably a straw man--more likely Jeremias argued that the phrase "for many" could idiomatically mean "for all" in Aramaic.)

Perhaps someone with a more intimate knowledge of this subject could comment, or better yet improve this article. --Iustinus 19:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This is an attempt at a more neutral article. I will leave it to persons more familiar with the issue and Wickpedia to see if it should replace the main article.

Pro multis is a Latin phrase which means "for many". It is part of the Rite of Consecration of the wine into the Blood of Christ the Western Christian tradition, as part of the Mass.

The Phrase.

The phrase comes from The gospel of Mark where he [Jesus] said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many Mark 14:24 RSV.

The Gospel text is translated “for many” in all almost all translations. Those that don’t are usually paraphrases. “Pro Multis” is the Latin.

In the liturgical settings, until the 20th Century, it was always translated “for many.”

In the 20th Century some advocated that “for all” is a better translation especially in a liturgical context.

After the second Vatican Council the new Mass in Latin still retained “Pro Multis,” but many vernacular translations, including English, were written as “for all”

Cardinal Francis Arinze, the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, recently directed that all translations will be "for many."

Theological Significance.

In Roman Catholic teaching Jesus died for the sins of ALL but only some (MANY) will avail themselves of the free gift of salvation. This is the middle position between two extremes.

The Universalistic heresy that all will be saved.

The Double Predestination heresy that Jesus did not die for all.

Proponents of “for all” stated that using "for many" promoted a Double Predestination attitude.

Supporters of “for many” in addition to supporting a literal translation often stated that “for all” promoted a Universalistic attitude.

Both sides say that teaching outside mass is important to prevent misunderstaning.

Roman Catholic commentators who support “for many” usually say something like “for all” is in the limits of orthodoxy but unfortunate and misleading.

The Controversy.

Since the Consecration is the central act of the Mass any questions about the accuracy of the translation take on a much larger scope than an academic review of the Greek and Latin would indicate. It is one of leading hot button items in discussions over the adequacy of the vernacular translations. It one of the main reasons that Traditionalist Groups have expressed for breaking with the Roman Catholic Church.

The POV of the original article.

The Author described the Roman Catholic Church as the Vatican II sect. The members of a church would not usually describe the themsleves as a sect. The article is a typical POV of the traditionalist groups which broke with Church on this issue.