Talk:Prosciutto
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Is this product restricted by AOC laws? Rmhermen 21:59, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
"Sunny, airy place"? Or a shady airy place. Wetman 12:30, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] Another delicious idea for Proscuitto....
Proscuitto is delicious when wrapped around fresh, uncooked asparagus tips. Mmmmm....
[edit] Terminology
Wait a second. In Italian, "Prosciutto" does not imply how the ham has been cured. In fact, by default, that would mean "prosciutto cotto", although the clerk would ask the customer a confirmation before slicing it ("Cotto" or "crudo"?).
"Parma ham" translates as "Prosciutto crudo". Now, if with time in English "Prosciutto" came to mean "Parma ham", that's another story, which should be made clear. PizzaMargherita 11:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've done it. PizzaMargherita 07:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
As to avoid the problems with the names prosciutto and Parma ham, I have rephrased the first paragraph in a mode that I hope is acceptable to anyone. The former indication (Prosciutto or Parma ham is ...) is definitely incorrect, and the current phrasing says it all as it should. LHOON 21:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- In the UK, "Parma ham" means "prosciutto crudo". If you show the picture to anybody in the UK, they would say "Parma ham". Brits don't care if it's San Daniele, Prosciutto di Parma or whatnot. What Americans (incorrectly) call "Prosciutto", Brits (incorrectly) call "Parma ham". Therefore I am willing to revert to previous version, perhaps making it clearer that one is US and the other is UK usage.
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Prosciutto (US), or Parma ham (UK), is a dry-cured ham from central and northern Italy. Varieties are also produced in other Adriatic countries.
- The current wording
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In English language, the term is used more narrowly for a dry-cured ham from central and northern Italy, especially the Parma ham.
- does not make sense to somebody who doesn't know that Prosciutto di Parma is a kind of "Parma ham". It also conflicts with the further explanation in the "Terminology" section. I hope this clears things up. PizzaMargherita 22:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree to make the distinction between UK and US usage, and will adapt the article like that, starting however with the correct meaning of prosciutto (ham in italian), and explaining UK and US usage. LHOON 23:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- Cool, thanks PizzaMargherita 06:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dry Curing
i think there should be more information about dry curing. for example, is dry curing the process of salting uncooked meats and leaving the meats to dry? also, is dry curing that simple, that all one does is clean the meat, salt it and leave it out to dry? what does "cleaning" the meat entail? thanks to anyone who can drop knowledge. Streamless 12:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation
Can someone please add how this word is pronounced? Thanks!—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 02:28, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Italians pronounce it "pro'shoot-toe". I've never heard a native English speaker say it (Brits call it "Parma ham"), but given how Americans pronounce "bologna" I wouldn't be surprised if they pronounced it completely differently, in which case we will have to put both. Anyway, I need some help in putting the correct IPA symbols. I'm particularly unsure about the stop before the "t". I'm not sure if it's a glottal stop, because you stop the vocal tract with your tongue and teeth. It's more like a dental stop... PizzaMargherita 07:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Why move Eastern Adriatic countries to the bottom?
Prosciutto, known locally under a slightly different name (pršut), is just as important part of, say, Slovenian or Croatian cuisine as it is of Italian cuisine. Slovenia's Karst/Kras Prosciutto (Kraški pršut) also has protected origin status (PGI). Yes, the names are different, but they redirect to this article and the term prosciutto is generally used to describe them in English (unlike, say, Iberian ham). After all, despite the different names, the varieties of prosciutto in Italy and the Eastern Adriatic countries have much in common. Therefore, the decision to move those countries to the bottom strikes me as a regrettable example of ethnocentrism. Even a quick look at the categories at the bottom will reveal how erroneous the decision to marginalize Eastern Adriatic prosciutto really was. WorldWide Update 21:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
- Prosciutto comes from Italy, there's no doubt about that. I don't think many English speaking readers refer to pršut when they say "prosciutto". Most readers would probably not care about all that info about production "in other Adriatic countries" in the second sentence of the article. They would see it as a "nice to know". This is why I moved it together with all others in the ghetto of ethnically cleansed countries. Because, as you skillfully worked out, that is my mission in WP.
- Also, could you please add a reference to back up PGI status of Kraški pršut? The referenced site disagrees. PizzaMargherita 23:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that prosciutto "comes from Italy". It is just as native to the Slovenian Karst, Istria, or Dalmatia as it is to Parma. Of course, the Eastern Adriatic has historically been Italian-influenced, but that doesn't mean that these countries do not have a right to consider it a part of their cuisines. After all, it developed there separately, with unique characteristics, just as it developed separately in various Italian regions. You agree that not all prosciutto comes from Parma, right? Well, it's equally true that not all prosciutto comes from Italy.
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- You are right when you say that "not many English speaking readers refer to pršut when they say 'prosciutto'". However, the opposite is true: Many English-speakers use the term "prosciutto" when referring to Slovenian or Croatian "pršut". A quick Google search should confirm that. In fact, I just finished reading a long article in US-based Gourmet magazine about Slovenian gastronomy, and, as is usually the case, the authors use "prosciutto" as a synonym for pršut. It's really the same thing in a different language: A Slovenian discussing Parma prosciutto will always refer to it as "pršut". And "pršut" redirects to this article. It has for a long time.
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- Let's look at an opposite situation: Teran is a type of wine closely associated with Slovenia (and Croatia) but also produced in Italy. If you check the Wikipedia entry for teran, you'll see that Italy gets its due mention, even though it uses a slightly different name. Why should prosciutto be any different? Different countries can share the same food (or versions thereof).
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- You say that "most readers would probably not care about all that info about production in other Adriatic countries in the second sentence of the article". Well, I happen to think that it's important to state at the beginning where prosciutto -- under that name, as commonly used in English -- is produced. The way you state it, it appears as if prosciutto is an exclusively Italian product which also happens to be produced in a few other countries, and even this fact you present as an afterthought of an afterthought. Well, that's not the case: Prosciutto is an important part of the national cuisines of several Adriatic countries. If people care about prosciutto production in various Italian regions, I don't see why they wouldn't care about varieties from Slovenia, Croatia, or Montenegro.
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- However, you are absolutely right about the PGI status of Kraški pršut; I misread the original article. It is currently protected in Slovenia under an approximate national equivalent of the PGI designation, and while there are ongoing plans to have it protected on the EU level (PGI or TSG), it is not currently on any PGI lists (probably because Slovenia only became a member of the EU less than two years ago). I apologize for the error. Of course, you are welcome to remove it from the list if you feel that geographic protection on a national level isn't sufficient.
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- Nevertheless, considering what I've said, and the fact that pršut is redirected here, I simply don't understand whay this article should only cover Italian varieties of prosciutto, when this word is clearly also a synomym for pršut. And pršut isn't that unknown either; particularly the Karst variety is exported to a number of European countries (including Italy!). It is also heavily promoted in the tourist press.
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- In other words, why change the status quo, when it has presented no problems in the past? WorldWide Update 01:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that prosciutto "comes from Italy".—This is what I mean: [1], [2], [3], [4]. Tell me if you need more. I don't see any reference to any "other adriatic countries" there. So please stop pushing your ethnocentric POV.
- [prosciutto] is clearly also a synomym for pršut—Please provide a reference of an English dictionary or thesaurus supporting this theory.
- So tell me, is pršut the same as prosciutto or is it different? If it's different, then pršut should have its own article (like Elenski but has) and link, not redirect here. If it's the same, then, as you seem to suggest, the word is simply the Slovenian (etc) word for "prosciutto". You don't see and entry for "bantal" redirect to "pillow", do you? The fact that pršut has redirected here for a while doesn't necessarily make it right.
- Of course, you are welcome to remove it from the list—Why, thank you very much. I'm going to the supermarket later, do you need anything? Why don't you provide a reference to back up the fact that it's under the "approximate national equivalent of the PGI" instead? PizzaMargherita 07:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
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- 1. Well, I can also play that game. Do a Google search of the words "Slovenian" or "Slovenia" and "prosciutto" (not as a phrase) and tell me what you get. Prosciutto does indeed come from Italy, but it doesn't come just from Italy. Baklava is an Arabic dish, but it's also Greek.
- 2. There is no dictionary entry for pršut for precisely the reason I mentioned: English speakers tend to use "prosciutto" to describe pršut.
- 3. Yes, it's the same thing as prosciutto, but it's also slightly different, just as the Modena variety in Italy is slightly different from the Veneto variety. It's all the same family, unlike Elenski but, whose origins and name are different.
- 4. Here [5] is one reference that indicates that kraški pršut is protected under the Slovenian equivalent of the PGI. It's in Slovenian only. WorldWide Update 09:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
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- 1. No, you can't really play the same game, can you? I have provided specific authoritative references. On the other hand, have you tried the Google search you suggested?
- 2. English speakers don't just "tend to" use prosciutto. They use prosciutto because pršut is not an English word.
- 3. It follows from what you say that it's ok to put these types of prosciutto together with the other types, and that is not in the second sentence of the article.
- PizzaMargherita 10:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
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- 1. Well, your sources -- which, BTW, I wouldn't consider that authoritative -- state that prosciutto is Italian. I'm not disputing that. Returning to my example, many sources also state that baklava is Middle Eastern. But it's also Greek, Bosnian, Bulgarian, etc., just as prosciutto is not only Italian.
- 2. You say that "They use prosciutto because pršut is not an English word." Thank you for proving my point! That's precisely the reason why pršut should be included in this article about prosciutto -- and not just as an afterthought. English-speakers looking for information about, say, Dalmatian prosciutto [6] will look for it here.
- 3. No, Elenski but and jamon iberico have a different name and different origins. Italian prosciutto and the varieties from the Eastern Adriatic countries, on the other hand, belong to the same family. After all, Italy and the coastal areas of these countries share a lot more than just prosciutto. WorldWide Update 11:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Ok, so the Cambridge dictionary and Merriam-Webster and "not that authoritative", are they?
- We don't list all the regions where prosciutto is produced in the first paragraph, and I don't think we should, because the list is very long. Why should "other Adriatic countries" be an exception?
- I propose we change the opening sentence to, "Prosciutto, or Parma ham, is a dry-cured ham, original from central and northern Italy." [italics mine] and move the second sentence in a section about production, where we can say where it is currently produced worldwide, listing the different kinds of prosciutto, with PGI status or otherwise. We should obviously keep the links to other types of dry-cured hams in a separate section. Ideally also the article should have another section about gastronomy. PizzaMargherita 13:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
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- 1. No, I would not consider dictionaries (of any kind) to be authoritative references for such matters.
- 2. Well, I agree that specific regions don't need to be mentioned, but countries should be there, so people will know where to place the dish geographically. If you think that's just too many countries, a reference to "most Adriatic countries" would probably suffice.
- 3. I like this better, but the main problem remains: Prosciutto, under this name, is also original to, say, the Kras region. Look it it this way: Had most of Kras (a.k.a. the Karst) remained in Italy after WWII, there's little doubt that this type of prosciutto would have a similar status as the other Italian varieties. Agree? But if you phrase it your way, it implies that the dish is not really native to that region -- i.e. that it's only native to various regions in modern-day Italy -- which isn't really true. It also doesn't make much sense to list pršut together with, say, jamon iberico, which is widely known under its own, very different name, or some U.S. varieties, which have almost no history or culinary tradition associated with them and are certianly not native to the United States. In the spirit of compromise, how would referring to "Italy and other Adriatic countries," without specifically mentioning them at the beginning, sound to you? WorldWide Update 16:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
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- I think that even leaving "other Adriatic countries" in the introduction is simply too much detail for an introduction, and as you can see it's just asking for a long list of countries to tailgate. What's the problem with doing all these explainations below?
- The way I see it is, there are five sets:
- The set of countries where prosciutto (the word and the cold cut) originated. As the references I offered confirm, that set contains only one country. If you disagree, please offer a reference that supports your theory.
- The set of regions that produce prosciutto, even if it's called with a different name. And by the way, since that word means prosciutto in a language other than English, even the presence of a redirect is debatable, because WP is not a dictionary.
- The set of types of prosciutto, and the region where they are produced. There is also a subset of EU PDO, PGI, and TSG prosciutto. And, if we really want to include this list, there is also the subset of "approximate national equivalent" PGI types of prosciutto. Their inclusion should be supported by references (in the article).
- The set of cold cuts that are similar to prosciutto. These include jamon, but, etc. It would be nice to have a section where these are compared.
- The set of cuisines that use prosciutto. As I said, it would be nice to add a section about this. PizzaMargherita 20:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
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I've read this too long discussion and I don't see the real disagreement on the facts. However, I also fail to see the rationale for PizzaMargherita's last edit. Why excluding the list of countries from the intro, which was fairly short? Worse still, why removing every reference to the form pršut? I'm not up to an edit war, but I object to removal of information without sufficient justification. The honor to its Italian origin was already given by the article title and very first sentence. Duja 21:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- Apologies for the removal, I didn't realise that the info was not repeated below—Karst pršut was actually still mentioned, but not the other info. However, please note that removal of the list of "other Adriatic countries" from the second sentence was agreed upon. As I explain above, I also oppose mentioning "other Adriatic countries" in the intro, but it seems there is no agreement on that.
- Finally, as I have said, pršut is not simply a "form". It is a translation of "prosciutto" in another language. Prosciutto is an English (loan) word, pršut is not. In the Bergamo province in North of Italy, prosciutto is known as "persöt", but we don't mention it here, do we? PizzaMargherita 22:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- I do agree that pršut is not an English word and prosciutto is. I just oppose removing info which was short and relevant; if not for other reason, it might help the English reader understand the menu. And we do try to list all the important local names for all internationally-shared things, like meals, music instruments, don't we? There are no "hard" borders, but if some 25 million people in the producing countries calls the thing pršut in the local language(s), I don't see the reason not to mention it in one word. I wouldn't object mentioning it in Bergamo dialect, either. We seem to agree about facts, but have different opinions about relevance, though. I don't object having somewhat Italocentric view in the current article (after all, it's the origin and most important produced), but I do object if you try to make it entirely Italocentric. As for "Adriatic countries", I'm not too much against that formulation, but since there are only 3 (and a half) of them, why be ambiguous?
- P.S. I added "Njeguški pršut" because it is a famous and geographically confined location in Montenegro, but I can't find the info about the legal status of the name protection at the moment.
- "I just oppose removing info which was short and relevant"—"Other Adriatic countries" is short. I think anything longer than that is not. And relevance is a matter of degree and, so it seems, rather subjective. Also the info was not removed (well ok it was by accident at first) but moved.
- "it might help the English reader understand the menu"—Once again, this is not what WP is for. WP is not a dictionary.
- "I wouldn't object mentioning it in Bergamo dialect, either"—I'm strongly against it. That would make it two words, not one. And then somebody comes along, who also wants his dialect to be mentioned, too (now we are not necessarily talking about this article). Where do we stop? (This is incidentally what was happening with the list of Adriatic countries at the top, and I suspect that so long as we have "other Adriatic countries" there, this will keep happening.)
- "since there are only 3 (and a half) of them, why be ambiguous?"—We are not ambiguous, the countries are listed. Just not at the beginning of the article.
- Anyway, apart from this the article is in need of some restructuring, as outlined in the bullet points above. What do you think about them?
- PizzaMargherita 06:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
- I love it, people on here can even argue a month over prosciutto. WorldWide Update, don't be so secure my dear. PizzaMargherita, be aware that the feelings of the Eastern Europeans, Slavs, etc. is quite tender. They want to show they have something too. Look at FYROM, they like to claim they are from Alexander the Great. :-)
- Oh face it, you're just saying that because you're unfortunate enough never to have had any Karst pršut. And I suspect the same of PizzaMargherita. You're both in denial, that's all. Oh, and here's a smiley face, just for you :-) TomorrowTime 06:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ways to eat Prosciutto?
can anyone suggest some ways to eat Prosciutto? i just know a simeple way is that to eat with melon sweet and salty,juicy and dry amazing match!
- I believe that's mentioned in the intro. PizzaMargherita 06:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- Never heard of that. In brooklyn, you pretty much can't get proscuitto (bur-jewt) unless it's on a sandwich with fresh mozzerella. Liu Bei 16:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pronounciation by English speakers and US/UK use of the term
Liu Bei, you mean it's pronounced "bur-jewt" in the US? Wow. We should mention it. I never heard anybody use the word "prosciutto" in the UK, so I don't know if it's even used at all there. "Parma ham" is definitely preferred. PizzaMargherita 22:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
- I mentioned this above. Here in Australia, it's usually called prosciutto and pronounced pro shoot toe, unless you're trying to sound posh, then you say pross cute toe. Naysie 06:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- The term "prosciutto" came into use in the UK after the war, and in particular after Elizabeth David's books introduced continental food to UK readers. Since then, and with many different versions readily available, the hams are generally referred to by their regional descriptions. Pronunciation in the UK is pretty much as Naysie describes above, but with numerous regional and personal variations. Sorry, but no references to back that up. LittlePete 08:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Prosciutto di Montagnana
I removed this from the designated origin list because I couldn’t find it on the EU site at [7]. In fact the Prosciutto di Veneto Berico-Euganeo producers consortium for protection is based in Montagnana, so it might be that the it’s the same thing being mentioned twice. —Ian Spackman 15:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
