Talk:Public address

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Contents 1 Merge? 2 Use as a mixer 3 Commercial links 4 Commercial Links, Part II 5 Monitor systems in PA 6 Other PAs

[edit] Merge?

Shouldn't the information in this article be merged with that in sound system? I think the info in this article is somewhat better, so moving stuff over would be advisable IMHO (then this article could just become a redirect). Or we could just remove info on PA's from the sound system article. What does everyone else think? —Frecklefoot 19:12, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Agree with a merge, but I think that sound reinforcement system should be merged into public address system because: sound reinforcement system gets about 7410 Google hits, but public address system gets about 117,000 Google hits. --Lexor|Talk 12:21, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hi, this is a tricky issue, because I think most non-musicians or non-sound engineers use the term PA, regardless of whether it is a 50-watt amp-mixer at a local coffee shop or a 10,000 watt pro touring rig at a rock concert. Yet from a pro-sound point of view, I imagine that "PA system" just refers to relatively simple institutional/commercial setups permanently installed in schools, hockey rinks, and churches, and "sound reinforcement system" would be used to refer to a pro setup with dozens of speakers, racks of poweramps, a mixing board with effects gear, etc. IMHO I think that it would be a good idea to keep a PA system article, but keep it limited to the relatively simple institutional/commercial setups permanently installed in schools, hockey rinks, and churches--and perhaps the small, portable systems that bar bands use in small and mid-sized venues (which seem to be universally called "the PA" by patrons and musicians!! : )...... The article could then indicate that larger concert systems are typically called "sound reinforcement", and direct readers to the sound reinforcement page.NatMor 17:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Ill put an official tag upMartijn Hoekstra 13:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Can this be merged in as well? Live sound reproduction For the record, a sound reinforcement system is one which is subtley "reinforcing" the sound as in a church or meeting room, Larger "Concert Systems" are referred to as PA systems. I am a Live sound engineer of 12 years experience --Badger 22:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems that everyone has a different opinion of what these systems are called. I, for one, understand the terms much as NatMor does. Perhaps it might not be a bad idea, though, to put them all on one page and redirect all of the others to that page. Whether the title of that page should be PA Systems, Sound Systems, or Sound Reinforcement Systems is what we should be debating. I suppose PA System is as good as any, because that's probably what most of the public knows them as... cluth 20:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree Cluth. --Badger 09:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

How about merging it all into Tannoy? My question is rhetorical = not a real question. But "sound reinforcement" has been an accepted term for what a PA-system does for at least a few decades, whether it's subtle or rock-concert levels involved. It remains a sticky question unfortunately. However, Live sound reproduction is erroneous; it's a made-up word, among many made up words that find their way into WP. ... Kenosis 14:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as Tannoy is a registered trademark of Tannoy, I think that would be a bad idea.... Kind of like Hoover / Vacuum Cleaner analogy. --Badger 12:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed the merge templates as this discussion wasn't really going anywhere. Public Address and Sound Reinforcement are really only alike in that they amplify sounds for a lot of people to hear. PA is usually for one voice, and Sound Reinforcement is usually for entire musical groups. Furthermore, Sound Reinforcement requires an operator and is considered an art form by many, whereas PA is just a system. --Ortzinator 22:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use as a mixer

In a public bandpractice studio (im lost for a better word) we have a PA (intended for mic amplification) with 2 speakers. We have used this setup as a mixer, running the instruments trough it, and sending the result to a 8 track recorder (Boss Br-8). We were told that this could damage the PA as it has "no way to release its power". To me this sounds like nonsense, but then, what do I know. Anyone know if this is true? Martijn Hoekstra 13:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The mixer doesn't care whether you plug tape decks or amplifiers into its line-out jacks. In fact, plugging *nothing* into its line out jacks won't hurt it. There's no such thing as "needing to release its power." If your "PA system" is an all-in-one deal that includes a built-in amplifier, it may not be the best thing to leave an amplifier on that's not connected to a speaker, but in any case, I've done so for months on end with no damage to the amplifier. Far more damage would result from putting a super-low-impedance load on the outputs (say, if the amp's outputs are rated for expecting 4 ohms, putting a 1-ohm load on them could result in overheating and damage). No damage will occur by putting a higher-impedance load (and plugging nothing in is effectively an infinite impedance) than the outputs expect. cluth 20:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

There is one case of an amp-mixer needing to be plugged into speakers. If you happen to have a vintage TUBE amp-mixer, you should note that tube amplifiers need to be plugged into a speaker(s), so that there is a load on the amplifier.

[edit] Commercial links

The following was placed on my talk page today. I'm placing the discussion here in the most relevant place. ... Kenosis 19:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I added those 2 links to the PA article page, which you called spam and removed. The PA systems primer, from Yorkville, explains how to plug in and set up a basic PA system. You stated that the article is supposed to provide the info, but in this case, these guides are very "how-to" and practical, more detailed info than you'd want in an encyclopedia. So I think that the link to the PDF document is helpful. I'm going to check what the wikipedia policy is, as far as what qualifies as spam, and what is legit.--ThanksNatMor 18:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, I had a similar discussion on the bass amplification page, and so I posted this note to Lightcurrent (an editor); he responded by sending a policy quote:

Leave out the adverts [left unsigned 19:10, 12 July 2006 by 198.103.196.130 ]

The article is about bass amplification, and the specific subsection is about amplifying the upright bass. Including the names of manufacturers seems reasonable. I believe an article about sports cars, specifically Italian sports cars would list the names Lambourghini, Ferrari, etc. There is even more justification in the bass amplification/upright bass preamp example, because whereas Lambourghini and Ferrari are well-known names, even to those outside the field of sports cars, the names of manufacturers of impedance-matching preamplifiers are probably unknown to most non-upright bassists.NatMor 02:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Links to the manufacturers are at the bottom of the page. I believe this is the acceptable place to put them, not in the body of the article.8-|--Light current 02:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Policy quote:

Advertising. Articles about companies and products are acceptable if they are written in an objective and unbiased style. Furthermore, all article topics must be third-party verifiable, so articles about very small "garage" or local companies are not likely to be acceptable. External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic (see finishing school for an example). Please note Wikipedia does not endorse any businesses and it does not set up affiliate programs. See also WP:CORP for a proposal on corporate notability.

....The policy quote indicates that external links to commercial organizations are acceptable -- and yet in my case, I wasn't even trying to link to the PA company's website, only to a PDF primer on PA systems.NatMor 19:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The Sweetwater link was a commercial link, pure and simple. The Yorkville primer is a closer call in my estimation. I have no objection to its inclusion. ... Kenosis 19:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks Kenosis...I wasn't sure which forum you'd respond in---I thought you might respond on your Talk page. Thanks for your letter : )NatMor 18:46, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial Links, Part II

Wikipedia does not allow “Links that are added to promote a site, that primarily exist to sell products or services, with objectionable amounts of advertising, or that require payment to view the relevant content.”

• This rule seems to prohibit commercial websites from manufacturers, because a PA company's website's main purpose is to sell products or services. However, I suppose if you add a link that doesn’t exist primarily to sell products or services (such as the “Basic PA systems Primer”), then that would be OK.

“Wikipedia does not allow the insertion of links that appear to promote products by pointing to obscure or not particularly relevant commercial sites. (Also called commercial links.)”

• Yorkville is a manufacturer of PA systems and equipment that sells their products in North America and Europe, and so this rule would not seem to disallow the inclusion of a Yorkville link.

“adding a small number of relevant external links can be a valuable service to our readers.”

• It is argued that the Yorkville “PA systems Primer” would provide a service to the readers that are interested in knowing how to set up a PA system.

External links should be to “Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article. Ideally this content should be integrated into the Wikipedia article, then the link would remain as a reference, but in some cases this is not possible for copyright reasons or because the site has a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article.” ….....

• Well, in this case, the Yorkville “PA Systems Primer” seems to qualify, because it has detailed information on how to set up, plug in, and sound check a basic PA system, which is arguably too much detail to put into an encyclopedia article about PA systems.

External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic.

• I guess an editor proposing a company would have to show proof that the company in question is a major corporation associated with the topic.
• Yorkville Sound is a Company that designs and manufactures all of its products at the 150,000 square foot facility. In the 1960's Yorkville sold PA and amplifier products in North America. In 1972 Yorkville expanded distribution into Europe.

“Advertising. Articles about companies and products are acceptable if they are written in an objective and unbiased style. Furthermore, all article topics must be third-party verifiable, so articles about very small "garage" or local companies are not likely to be acceptable. External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic (see finishing school for an example). Please note Wikipedia does not endorse any businesses and it does not set up affiliate programs. See also WP:CORP for guidelines on corporate notability.”

• Please see the paragraph above on Yorkville Sound
• The PA systems primer makes no reference to any Yorkville products in the text, even when the text is discussing the different types of microphones, amplifiers and speakers. Nor are there any references to the purported attributes or benefits of using Yorkville products.
• Summary of content of proposed link: BASIC P.A.SYSTEMSA PRIMER FOR USING P.A. SYSTEMS

· What is impedance · How to calculate the total impedance · microphone types (dynamic, condenser and ribbon) · equalizers (including parametric equalizers) · What are crossovers · How do mixers work · Connecting the various parts of a P.A. system · What are decibels · How do amplifiers work · How to deal with noise in a P.A (e.g., magnetic fields, radio stations, ground hums, hiss) · Does length or thickness of speaker cable matter · What is “clipping” ? · Why do speakers “blow”? · What is feedback (loud squealing sound)NatMor 17:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monitor systems in PA

In the Large venue PA systems section, it is claimed that monitor systems are a part of PA systems. It is my understanding that having a monitor system is one of the significant lines which divides a Public Address system from a Soun Reinforcement system. Unless anybody begs to differ, I will take the liberty to edit this section extensively. I will do my best to cite sources so that the editing and discussion on this topic will be as progressive as possible --Davidkazuhiro 11:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds incorrect to me. --Ortzinator 03:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Was that an agreement or a disagreement? --Davidkazuhiro 04:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to be trite, but perhaps monitor systems are more accurately categorized as " 'semi-private' address systems". ... Kenosis 04:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

valid =D --Davidkazuhiro 07:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other PAs

I think this should mention the PA systems that are used in schools and offices, which can he hooked up to telephones as well as microphone. --D-Day 22:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)