Talk:Pun

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Dr. John Reese, of Pensacola Christian College is a notorious punster, making his students groan upwards of four times per hour-and-a-half lecture period.
Sehrgut

Contents 1 SIMPLE QUERY - PLEASE RESPOND 2 Factual accuracy dispute 3 Ajoke 4 Unsure of 'pun' definition 5 Paranomasia 6 The pun on "Peter" from Matthew 6.1 It's that way in the Bible 7 "English-language phenomenon"? 8 dajare 9 Richard Whiteley 10 We need more simple, modern examples of pun 11 Neologism? 12 Are these really puns? 13 Proposed merge 14 Is this a pun? 15 I really like this one: 15.1 Quotations 16 Pun-ished 17 WB

[edit] SIMPLE QUERY - PLEASE RESPOND

How do you make the final sigma in Greek? I thought the code was "&sigmaf", but that didn't work. Please help.

You need a semicolon (ς), but it still won't work for some browsers. Similarly ς or ς.

[edit] Factual accuracy dispute

The description of a pun is more accurately a description of spoonerism and not pun. –– Constafrequent ^{(talk page)} 07:47, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

a.k.a. oonerspism

[edit] Ajoke

Q: When is a door not a door?
A: When it's (ajar/a jar)!

Once my brother and I went camping and he tried to scare me by pretending he was a bear, but I was barely scared. --Gimli 00:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsure of 'pun' definition

I added the following example 'pun': "Many puns are created without the knowledge of the speaker, For example: A TV show once depicted a man who had been impaled by an anchor. When interviewed the surgeon who performed the operation stated the common phrase "He sailed through it". With the pun being that an anchor is used during sailing."

Although, this doesn't seem to match the definition of pun at the top of the page. But i am sure this is labelled a pun. Can someone give me a heads up on this, i expect either i've confused this with another word, or the definition of 'pun' needs some additions to it..? Any ideas, anyone? ---Benbread 18:08, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is a pun in that two different meaning of "to sail" are referenced, the metaphorical "sailing" through an operation being separate from the literal "sailing" which involves anchors. But I'll give the def. a look. Orbis 3 15:59:26, 2005-08-11 (UTC)

I have to disagree. Only one meaning of "to sail" is used, but one of the instances is a metaphor. No homonyms are involved, as required by the definition. This is a very common misuse of the term "pun", not an example of its use. Shantavira 13:35, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Orbis is correct. Using a metaphor with a connection in its literal sense is a legitimate type of pun. A wonderful example was a dialogue between two inveterate celebrity punsters, Gordon Jump and William Shatner, where Jump remarked that "I have three daughters and a shotgun," to the last part of which Shatner replied (among other things), "It must have been a breech birth." BobGreenwade 18:35, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Paranomasia

Currently, paranomasia redirects here. I feel it could merit a separate article. I have always thought that paranomasia was a subset of pun. Puns which were also examples of paranomasia used etymological word play ie. different meanings of one word etc not homophones or almost homophones. It has been a while though and I'm happy to be corrected. -orizon 10:28, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

    From a college printout I found paronomasia along with antanaclasis, and syllepsis are 3 subsets for pun
    the definitions being

    Pun: generic name for those figures which make a play on words
    antanaclasis: repetition of a word in two different senses
    "Your argument is sound, nothing buy sound." -Benjamin Franklin
    paronomasia: use of words alike in sound but different in meaning
    "Independence is what a boy feels when all he wants from father is to be left a loan." -Minneapolis Star, April 26, 1966
    syllepsis: use of a word understood differently in relation to two or more other words, which it modifies of governs
    " The ink, like our pig, keep running out of the pen." -Student paper

Sorry I don't know the source name so I'm not sure if this can be included, or where this would fit in. --24.145.155.131 02:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The pun on "Peter" from Matthew

The article states that the pun wouldn't have worked in the origional Aramaic that Jesus spoke. Though "Peter" wouldn't have worked, there are two references to his name being "Cephas" which does mean "Rock" in Aramaic, so the pun would still work in the origional spoken language. If no one has any complaints against me changing that in the article I will change it in the next couple days. KyleT 22:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I am confused about the update on the section on Peter: "This has actually been presented as circumstantial evidence that the passage was originally invented, years after Jesus' death, by a Greek-speaking author." I don't understand what about the name difference in Aramaic and Greek makes it evidence that it was invented later, especially since he is called Cephas in John and 1 Corinthians. Is there a site that explains this more fully? Also, I don't believe that anyone contests that the Gospels were written at least 10-20 years after his death. KyleT 20:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. If the pun works in Aramaic as well as Greek, then surely it cannot be evidence for later invention. Nor can we simply reverse the sense by adding a "not". So let's just delete the sentence, unless anyone can explain it. TobyJ 11:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

How can this be an example of a pun at all? It is clear from the context that Jesus gives him the byname Peter/Cephas at this occasion; his real name was Simon. Apus 08:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It's that way in the Bible

Jesus told me he was making a pun by changing Simon's name to represent his importance to the church. The sequence is clear in the Bible:

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.'

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Pretty clear to me: Simon=flesh and blood >> Peter=rock

It's the most famous pun in history. Ortolan88 21:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "English-language phenomenon"?

In order to be able to pun effectively it is necessary that a language must include homonyms which may readily be misrepresented as synonyms. Languages with gender or case structures tend not to facilitate this: the pun is generally an English-language phenomenon, although puns can be constructed in other languages with varying degrees of difficulty. [emphasis mine]

I have to disagree, and strongly. Although I have not actually studied the matter, I have heard all kinds of things that suggest the pun is appreciated just as easily in a variety of languages. For example, I remember reading that a study, I forget which, showed that Germans have a high appreciation of puns. Puns may not be as easy to make in German, but the pun is certainly alive and well in Germany. Puns are very common in Japanese, with perhaps the most famous example being the title of the anime/manga Urusei Yatsura, which can be read literally as "people from the planet Uru", but "Urusei" ("planet Uru") sounds a lot like "urusai", meaning "obnoxious". It is very evident to me that Japanese is not at all lacking in pun-making capabilities and I would wager that they use puns more often than we do. So that covers Germany and Japan. The article itself mentions the ease of Chinese puns, which I assume typically follow the same principles as Japanese puns. So that covers three non-English-speaking countries that make heavy use of puns. If we assume that, if puns are indeed popular in Germany, they're probably popular in Austria and Switzerland too, that's two more countries. There are certainly languages where puns are so difficult to construct that they are not common or popular forms of humor in that language, but I think we're already getting far from "generally an English-language phenomenon". Sure, I've only mentioned three other languages, but even if these were the only languages with puns, would it make sense to you if somebody in China said "The pun is generally a Chinese-language phenomenon" on the basis that only three other languages had them? In any case, it seems apparent to me that it is a world-wide phenomenon. I'd change the article, but I think I should have a source to back up that assertion. - furrykef (Talk at me) 16:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Furrykef's strong disagreement. To say that the pun is generally an English-language phenomenon is at best a parochial statement and certainly a wrong one. (To take but one example, long before the English language came into being, Indians were punning — and moaning at each other's puns — in Sanskrit and Tamil and writing them into their plays, poems, and grammar books.) Repeat that statement to any native speaker of any language and he or she will go on throwing puns at you until you drop to your knees and swear to forsake your punditry. - Mu 22:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The article claims that punning is difficult in languages with a complex case structure. As a Finnish-language punster I must disagree with this (although I have no scholarly references, only personal experience). The Finnish case system is implemented by declinating words, which means that each word has a plethora of different forms. This phenomenon in effect multiplies the vocabulary available for punning. Very often it happens that unrelated, similar-sounding words have some declinated forms that are identical. For example, kuusta can be either the partitive case of kuusi, meaning spruce or the elative case of kuu, meaning moon. Kuusi, in turn, can mean also the number six (this one is a genuine homonym), or it can be a form of kuu, with 2nd person singular possessive suffix attached. Kuulla means hear, but it also is the adessive case of kuu. In the meaning six, the partitive case of kuusi is kuutta, which also is the abessive case of kuu. Punainen Nörtti

So, Naughty Nörtti, show us with a Finnish pun!TobyJ 12:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I mentioned the declensing puns, so I stick to this category (most of Finnish puns seem to be polysemia puns).

Vangilla oli karatessa musta vyö.

The prisoner had a black belt in karate / The prisoner had a black belt while escaping. (karatessa can be a declensed form or either karate or karata, to escape.)

Eläinkaupan hiiret olivat kateissa.

The mice of the animal shop were lost / The mice of the animal shop were in cats.

kateissa can be a declensed form of either katti meaning cat or kadota meaning to get lost.

Hevonen on turvallinen eläin.

A horse is a safe animal / A horse is an animal with a horse's mouth.

turvallinen can be a declensed form of either turva meaning safe or turpa meaning a horse's mouth.

Join kustakin mukista.

I drank from each mug / I drank also pee from a mug.

kustakin can be a declensed form of either kukin meaning each or kusi meaning pee.

Joutsenet näyttävät kurjilta.

The swans look miserable / The swans look like cranes.

kurjilta can be a declensed form of either kurja meaning miserable or kurki meaning a swan.

- Mitä teit puolityhjälle pullolleni? - Vein vajaan.

What did you do to my half-empty bottle. - I took the half-empty. / I took it into a barn.

Vajaan can be a declensed form of either vajaa, meaning half-empty or vaja, meaning a barn.

Kun ostaa maastoauton, ei tarvitse katua.

If you buy a Jeep, you do not need to regret / If you buy a Jeep, you do not need a street.

katua means to regret, but it can also be a declensed form of katu, a street.

Surraan vasta huomenna, sanoi kärpänen ja lähti kävelemään.

Let's mourn tomorrow, said a fly and walked away / I'll buzz tomorrow, said a fly and walked away.

Surraan can be a declensed form of surra, to mourn, or surrata, to buzz.

Western-tähti ei ampunut kuutta laukausta.

Western-star did not shoot six shots. /Western-star did not shoot a shot without a moon.

kuutta as above. The word tähti, star has the same polysemy as English meaning also a celebrity.

Note that all the above puns are grammatically correct in both ways. There are also Finnish puns that are grammatically correct when read in one way, and "almost grammatically correct" when read the other way.Punainen Nörtti 18:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Then some homonymia:

Jos tien toisella puolella on viisi puuta ja toisella kuusi, kuinka monta puuta on yhteensä?

If one side of a road has five pines and the other side six, how many trees are there altogether? / If one side of a road has five pines and the other side a spruce, how many trees are there altogether?

kuusi as above.

Then some compond word puns. In Finnish you can make compond words by writing the words one after another.

Lohiamme on täynnä lohiamme.

The pool for salmon is filled with our salmons.

Amme means a pool and lohi means a salmon, thus lohiamme is a pool for salmon. On the other hand, -a is a partitive marker (here used for plural) and -mme is a possessive suffix, and thus lohiamme means also our salmons.

Hienostoravintolassa käydään kauppaa ruumiineritteillä.

In a restaurant for the nobility they trade sweat./ In a buying-sweat-restaurant they trade sweat.

Hien osto means buying sweat, and when combined with ravintola, restaurant you write everything without whitespaces, that is, hienostoravintola (Meaning a restaurant that is concerned with buying sweat). Hienosto means also nobility, it is derived from the word hieno, fancy.

Pikkukaloille haitaksi on vaarallinen kulkuneuvo.

For little fish a dangerous vehicle is harmful./ For little fish a shark taxi is a dangerous vehicle.

Haitta means harm, and it declenses into haitaksi when by adding the transitive case marker. hai means shark, and taksi means taxi, thus haitaksi means a shark taxi.

Then the second-lowest form of punning, the polysemia pun. (The lowest form of punning is of course the polysemia pun using sexual euphemisms.)

Poliisi pidätti hengitystään.

A policeman held his breath. / A policeman arrested his breath.

Yes, the Finnish word for arresting, pidättää is used also for holding breath. Well, maybe the English equivalent could be A beautiful policewoman arrested my attention.

Jos menee asehuutokauppaan, ei kannata ostaa tarpeetonta kanuunaa.

It you go to a weapons auction, do not buy a needless cannon.

Needless cannon means also needless stuff.

Kävipä ohraisesti, sanoi oluenpanija.

Barley happens, said a brewer.

An old-fashioned Finnish equivalent of shit happens is barley happens.

Ahne koronkiskuri sai töita suutarilta.

A greedy loan shark was employed by a shoemaker.

loan shark is interest puller in Finnish, and the same word korko is used both for interest (in the context of loaning money) and heel (in the context of shoes), literally meaning rising.Punainen Nörtti 16:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dajare

The article dajare is big enough and distinct enough to be left separate. Anthony Appleyard 06:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Bibliomaniac15 23:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

From looking there, I think dajare looks like a version of a pun. Let's merge them. (142.22.186.7 20:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC))

Logically, dajare is large enough to be seen as a sub-page spun off of pun, with a summary on the main page prefixed by a reference to the full article. --Kaz 18:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Its similar, warranting a see also maybe, but seems different enough (and long enough) to warrant its own article. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 11:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Similar, yes, but distinct enough that they should not be merged. EVula 21:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

What is distinct about it besides it having different examples because of the language? Is it not just a Japanese pun? In Defense of the Artist 16:24, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

"I prefer a partial merge" Reference should be made to the Japanese equivalent of the English pun, especially since they have a name for it. The reference could precede the notation on the Chinese. Anything beyond that would be tedious in the need for translation and explanation. [graycek,10:36AM,10/04/06]

There is no reason to merge "駄洒落(dajare)" and "Pun" in the database. 駄洒落(dajare) is not a spin-off of the Enlgish pun, it is a seperatly evolved idea that exists in almost all languages - which is also mentioned on the "Pun" entry in reference to ancient Hebrew puns. If 駄洒落(dajare) is merged you should merge any other entries of non-English puns also. --Xaghce 06:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Whiteley

No page about puns is complete without a mention of the king of them all!Martyn Smith 21:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I would have said that Mr Whitely's use of puns was more accurately described as "awkward" rather than "dextrous"... --Amaccormack 10:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] We need more simple, modern examples of pun

Can't come up with any at the moment, though. --nlitement ^[talk] 02:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

* How did mr. Holmes figure out who dunnit? - Sheer luck!

* My dog is a champion boxer.

* A man went to NASA and asked if he could meet astronauts. The receptionist replied: I'm sorry, but they all have gone out for a launch.

* A wife and a husband in the Soviet Union during Christmastime were arguing whether it snows or rains. They asked Rudolf, who answered that it rains. The wife said to his husband: Rudolf the Red knows rain, dear.

* Three brothers bought a ranch and their mother named it Focus, since that's where the sons raise meat.

* Do robots have brothers? - No, but they have transisters.

* - What is Mind? - No matter. What is Matter? - Never mind!

* The eleventh pun always gets the laugh even if no pun in ten did.

* A Polish mathematician tried to fly an aeroplane. When he failed, he said: "I am just a simple pole on a complex plane."

* A couple of Cockneys went to New York and drove a car on the left side of the read. A police stopped them and asked: "Did you come here to die?". The Cockneys answered: "No, we came yesterdie."

Update: Eats, Shoots and Leaves

Punainen Nörtti 10:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Groanworthy modern pun follows:-

Q. Did you hear about the policeman who arrested a battery and a firework?

A. No....what?

Q. He charged one and let the other one off....

-- FClef (talk) 19:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neologism?

How is Pun a neologism? I'm taking it out of that category. --Xyzzyplugh 14:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are these really puns?

No. These aren't puns. They're complete nonsense. I say death to Hwoarang the doorbell.

[edit] Proposed merge

• Oppose.Both articles would lose their focus. Dajare is really culturally Japanese (I realise that the concept of ethnic culture is out of favour at the moment). It is part of the category of "Japanese word games" - what would happen to that if it were merged? It is strongly focused enough to stand alone.

Perhaps a disambiguation page or cross-reference is called for. -- FClef (talk) 23:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. The significance of dajare is specifically tied to Japanese culture and language (many, many homophones). The current cross-referencing seems sufficient to me. -Garrepi 01:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Very different contexts. Keep link at the bottom in see also. Scoutersig 15:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's difficult to tell why at the moment, because I think the dajare article is very underwritten. However, the cultural importance of dajare is very much different from the cultural importance of the pun. The article on dajare should be much more detailed to reflect this; I think I know where to get more information about them, so I will see if I can strengthen the article to give it feet to stand on. Erk|Talk _{-- I like traffic lights --} 13:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this a pun?

"Pre-owned game." this is because own has two meanings, the original "own" and the leetspeak own or pwn, the latter meaning that the game was previously pwned "beaten". --211.28.237.112 15:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think "pwned" is commonly understood yet to become a pun except between those already familiar with "pwn". Still, few years later, I think it will be. --Revth 08:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I really like this one:

[edit] Quotations

..."Never underestimate someone's last name that is Pun, for in doing so, one is punning. The word joke is allowed, but don't choke yourself when saying 'Pun'." -- Lady Anthia - you know, I know that person...

--74.96.208.20 02:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)User:Xinyu

[edit] Pun-ished

Don't vandalize this page or you will be pun-ished. Hahaha...Well, nobody else was laughing...So I thought I would...Even though it was my joke...Crazykid777 06:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

LOL, I found it funny. <3 --84.249.253.201 18:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WB

Warner Brothers' show "Animaniacs!" made great use of puns, one episode was even named "This Pun For Hire" and focused on dealing out one pun after the other at an unbelievable rate, you think they should be noted?

Yakko: How're you doing Scratchy? Dr. Scratchansniff: I take umbrage of that. Yakko: Oh sure, take all the umbrage, don't leave any for us! Dr. Scratchansniff: No, I mean, I take offense! Yakko: And you want our fence too? *hands Scratchansniff 5 planks of fence* Alrigh, take it! But that's all, we're tapped out!