Talk:Pysanka

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Some anon user made a piece of good work in preparing or translating this article. However, he also made it NPOV. Pisanki/pysanky/pisanntsi are a common Slavic tradition that dates back to pre-Christian times. They are common and equally known in most Slavic countries, yet the article suggests that they are a genuine Ukrainian tradition. This needs a complete rewrite. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:23, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Bah, I forgot to mention that the earliest known pisanki are from ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt... Halibutt]]

Do you still remember they are called differently :-) Mikkalai 22:41, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article describes a particular type of egg painting (egg decorating...gotcha!!!), specific to a particular nation. So I'd suggest to leave this one mostly "as is", probably removing phrases like "made in Ukraine are by far the most intricate and best known". But things about color symbolics etc., are pretty individual IMO. So on the other hand, I'd all more phrases of exact attribution. Also, easter egg, Faberge egg. So, rewrite yes, but complete, probably no. Mikkalai 22:41, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

BTW IMO "accuracy" tag suits more. The overall bias of the article is mostly because of a "limited POV", rathter than because of a "predisposed POV". So I'd suggest to leave "NPOV" tag to heated political discussions about controversial issues. I don't percieve significant controversy here (only whose egges are better). Mikkalai 22:51, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Russian: "расписное яйцо", "писанка"

Agreed. How about preparing an article on, for instance, Egg decorating in Slavic culture and leave this one here while at the same time creating Pisanka on the Polish version - and as many other articles as it gets to count down all the differences (see the Polish article for reference)? This way the egg decorating would become the main page of the "project". [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 05:38, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for any misunderstandings. I posted the article late one night, my first, and am anonymous because I wasn't sure how to establish an ID. It is meant to cover only the subject of the Ukrainian decorated easter egg, and not some pan-slavic or universal approach to egg decoration. And I'm not sure what the objection "genuine Ukrainian tradition" (above) is. It is a genuine Ukrainian tradition. It may not be a uniquely Ukrainian tradition, but I did not impute it was.

"Pysanka", with that particular spelling, is generally used to denote a Ukrainian-made egg. Polish easter eggs made with the batik method are called "pisanki"(pl.)/"pisanka"(sing.); the pronunciation is different, and that is the actual Polish spelling, as opposed to "pysanka", which is a transliteration of the Ukrainian. (May I humbly suggest that the article I supplanted be re-posted under a "pisanka" heading?)

A google search, or simply asking people at random, will show that the Ukrainian pysanka seems to be the best known of the slavic decorated eggs. And, based on my experience, they seem to be the most intricate, especially those created by the diaspora. Keep the phrase or not, as you wish. I did not mean for this to be an argument about whose eggs are "best".

The article itself is from a handout I give to my students (I teach pysanka making, purely as a hobby), and is based on my study of numerous books, in English and Ukrainian, on the subject, and one particularly good book on symbolism in Ukrainian handcrafts. I also have a slew of hand-drawn illustrations (for the symbolism section) and hope to post those into the article when I get the time and can figure out how to do it. Is jpeg best? Do I just cut and paste? --lubap18:51 Sep 9, 2004 (EDST)

Thank you very much for the reply.

• Images: there is a special way of adding images to wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Image use policy. Also, Wikipedia:Community Portal has lots of links to rules of wikipedia. You may want to start with Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers.
• Pisanka: you wrote: "supplanted" where? IMO it is in proper place. BTW, there is an article in Polish-language wikipedia:Pisanka Mikkalai 00:15, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

BTW, I started a Pisanka stub, for making links. Mikkalai 00:57, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

When I posted the current article, I replaced a short article on pisanka (Polish) with my article on pysanka (Ukrainian). I id this because I felt the article was in the wrong spot. (Pisanka is not the same as pysanka). It still exists in the history section. I would like to read a good article on Polish pisanky, in English, and that one could be the stub.

I think your stub might be perhaps best be titled differently, as suggested earlier, "Egg decorating in Slavic culture". Despite the animosity between our nations, Polish eggs deserve an article of their own. I have a couple of short, non-professional English-language books on the subject, but can't say I'm much of an expert on the topic, or I'd offer to write it. --lubap 18:53, 10 Sept 2004 (EDST)

If you search for "pisanka" in google in English language, you'll find reference to painted eggs in Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus. Therefore we need namely this disambig page. Mikkalai 23:32, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Czech & Slovak: Kraslica. Mikkalai 23:32, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lithuanian: Margutis(sing.)/Margučiai (pl.) Mikkalai 23:50, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

How about Egg rolling? Mikkalai 23:50, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Mikkalai, thanks a lot for taking care of this mess, I appreciate it much. I also find this article provided by Lubap very interesting, informative and needed. It's only that it's too one-sided. I'm a huge fan of eggs in all aspects (a convertite to be exact since until recently I hated both eating and painting eggs). Anyway, there's a bit of confusion over the Polish pisanka since this term is a bit ambiguous:

• Pisanka is the generic Polish word for all kinds of decorated eggs, even those made of wood. However, technically speaking, there are lots of kinds of pisanki when it comes to the techniques used:
  • Kraszanki are one-coloured eggs, boiled in water with some natural paint (onions, oak wood, flowers and so on)
  • Pisanki (or Pisanki proper, as one would say) in this context are eggs with some pattern painted with wax and then boiled just as kraszanki
  • Oklejanki are those with different materials attached to the egg (that's the batik method you mentioned here)
  • Rysowanki are eggs with the image painted on them and those are the easiest to prepare (just take a marker and...)
  • Skrobanki are like kraszanki, but with an image or a pattern created by scratching the surface of the coloured egg

Oh, and there's also our favourite Ruslana Pysanka, but I doubt she belongs here :) [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 01:01, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

My knowledge of Polish is limited, but "oklejanki" would refer to eggs with things glued/attached to them. Batik does not attach things to the egg; it is a wax resist method, and hot wax is used to preserve the color on a section of the egg. Once all the dyeing is completed, the wax is removed.

I can't comment on Polish egg decoration as an expert, but in Ukraine there are also many types of egg decoration as well:

• • Krashanky are boiled eggs dyed a single color (with vegetable dyes) and are blessed and eaten at Easter.
  • Pysanky are raw eggs created with the wax-resist method (aka batik). The designs are "written" with a stylus ("pysaty" is the Ukrainian word verb "to write"). Wooden eggs and beaded eggs are often referred to as "pysanky" because they mimic the decorative style of pysanky in a different medium.
  • Krapanky are raw eggs decorated with the the drop-pull wax resist technique; they are most common in western Ukraine (among the Lemky and Boyky)
  • Dryapanky are created by scratching the surface of a dyed egg to reveal the white shell below.
  • Malyanky are created by painting or coloring (e.g. with a marker) on an egg

All but the krashanky are usually meant to be decorative (as opposed to edible), and the egg yolk and white are either allowed to dry up over time, or removed by blowing them out through a small hole in the egg. Some of the others, most notably the krapanky, are referred to by some as "pysanky", but that is not the correct usage of the term. --Lubap 1844 Sept 17, 2004 (EDST)

"...the baldness on either end signifies that the boyfriend will soon lose his hair...":) Does it matter which end?--Grigoryev 15:38, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

It says "either". (BTW, why don't you ask about baldness in the middle?) Mikkalai 17:24, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

what is POV and NPOV? Privately owned vehicles and non-privately owned vehicles?--Grigoryev 15:48, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

In is insider slang. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Mikkalai 17:24, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Differences

As far as I remember some time ago we agreed to distinguish between various regional forms of egg decorating by creating separate articles on Pisanka and Pysanka. However, so far I fail to see any major difference between the two. Even the names of various types are more or less the same in both Poland and Ukraine (Krashanky - kraszanki; Pysanky - pisanki; Krapanky - nakrapianki/kropianki; driapanky - drapanki; Malianky - malowanki...). Do we really need two separate articles on what appears to be a single phenomenon? I suggest we used Ockham's Razor here (though I'm not sure if such a razor is good at scratching the egg for drapanka style eggs :) ). Halibutt 12:50, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, although it may be a good idea for someone knowledgeable to do the merge carefully, since there's a fair bit of material here. I'd like to see some additions about the regional characteristics, which could cover regions of all the nations in one article section. My understanding is that particular styles, e.g., krapanky, are characteristic of certain places.

For starters, the pseudo-disambiguation page at pisanka could be merged into the slightly broader pseudo-disambiguation page at egg decorating. We should also use Ockham's kystka. —Michael Z. 2005-10-21 13:09 Z

Indeed, since people seem to be quite passionate about the names in various languages, usage of the neutral egg decorating seems quite a good idea. Perhaps we could make the article some sort of the main project page and merge all the Slavic variations into, for instance, Egg decorating in Slavic culture or something along that line (with both Pisanka and Pysanka redirecting there). What do you say? Halibutt 15:06, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me, especially while the usual suspects are busy renaming Chernihiv. I'm going to try to take a break, so I don't expect to be much help. It would be good to find someone who could write at least a brief description of the national commonalities and differences in Belarusan, Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian eggs. —Michael Z. 2005-10-21 15:42 Z

[edit] Vegreville pysanka

You should also add a link or mention to the world's largest pysanky in Vegereille, Alberta, Canada. Vegreville, Alberta (maybe a picture, too?) Kevlar67 18:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Good thinking—done. —Michael Z. 2005-12-15 18:58 Z

[edit] Pysanka and Cucuteni culture

I removed from the article the ridiculous and unsourced assertion about pysanka's origins in the Cucuteni culture which flourished five millennia ago. This is a sample of nationalist pseudo-science at its worst. I would like to see sources for other strange statements, e.g., "folk tales" about the Ukrainians worshipping sun. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 12:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the references to "sun worship" from the article. You're right--they didn't belong there, at least with that wording. I inserted Dazhboh (pagan slavic sun god) where appropriate, as I've come to understand the differences between worshipping a sun god and worshipping the sun. Any other suggestions wrt Ukrianian prehistory?--lubap (who can't remember her sign-in today)