Talk:Radical feminism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Radical feminism article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	This article is part of WikiProject Gender Studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class.

Archives
Archive 1

Contents 1 Differing tendencies within radical feminism 2 "Criticisms" section added 3 58.105.101.3 4 more propaganda 5 Loneranger4justice contributions 6 Fascism 7 Quotes 8 2.2 Action

[edit] Differing tendencies within radical feminism

This article gives very little idea that radical feminism isn't (or at least historically wasn't) one single monolithic philosophy. Certainly the (now disappeared) schools of materialist radical feminism (eg, Redstockings, Shulamith Firestone) was very different from the more matriarchal tendencies that eventually became the dominant tendency of radical feminism. And even within the latter, there's a difference between cultural feminism and lesbian separatism on one hand and the more activist approach of Dworkin and MacKinnon. Also, ecofeminism is clearly rooted in cultural feminism, so that deserves some discussion as well. In other words, a good historical/ideological survey is as called for here as it would be in an article about Marxism. Peter G Werner 06:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Criticisms" section added

I've just added a "Criticisms" section that will probably make no one happy. I've briefly summarized critiques from men's rights, liberal feminist, leftist, and queer positions, as well as the position of Ellen Willis and Alice Echols that contemporary radical feminism is essentially cultural feminism.

What I've written is far from perfect; the criticisms are rather brief and terse, and I'm largely quoting from memory, so I don't have citations handy. (But then this entire article suffers from lack of citation, so I'm far from alone in that sin.) It at least serves as the rough beginning of a "criticisms" section that others can build upon. Peter G Werner 23:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a good start, Señor.--Rockero 00:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed --Jgda 02:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much, at least the ball is rolling now... hopefully it won't be summarily deleted like previous critisisms. Easter rising 13:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, your criticisms section is well-done. Citations lack, but citations lack in the whole article. I sincerely hope it's not deleted. Matt620 21:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 58.105.101.3

The above user's addition did not rehash already stated material. It mentioned a divide between 'real feminism' and 'radical feminism' which certainly exists in the minds of many feminists and anti-feminists alike whether we agree with it or not, and it mentions the drive for a matriarchal society and makes a suggestion that this could be potentially dystopic and oppressive. I don't see where these were before stated. Stylistically, the points were made inelegently: was that the real reason it was deleted?--Jgda 00:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it looked like it was written by a 12-year-old did have a lot to do with the reversion, yes. Basically, it was so crappy it needed either a total rewrite or reversion. In thinking how I'd rewrite it, I really didn't see any new points there (its already been stated that radical feminism is viewed by many as misandrist), plus it seemed more a statement of the POV of the author, not a verifiable criticism from an outside source.

I'm really not trying to protect radical feminism from all criticisms, but please review the points I've made above – Wikipedia articles need to include summaries of notable criticisms found in verifiable, published sources; Wikipedia is not a place to air personal pet criticisms. Peter G Werner 08:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more propaganda

why does wikipedia has 10 different articles of feminism?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.137.9 (talk • contribs) 03:51, July 31, 2006 (UTC).

Because there are at least 10 different kinds of feminism. While I may disagree with some of their stances, each kind is different, and each deserves representation. I hardly see the quantity of articles relating to feminism as propaganda, but I see the content of some of the articles as being rather POV. I invite you to make edits to existing articles, so long as they're NPOV. But first, I'd advise you to sign up for an account (your IP address has made many contributions, and should probably be registered) and sign your comments with "--~~~~" without the quotes --Ringmaster j 05:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC) (<- Like this!)

[edit] Loneranger4justice contributions

I've let stand (with minor edits) the following text under criticisms:

"Many Men's Rights and Father's Rights activists view radical feminist agendas and legislature such as the VAWA as invoking the profiling and sexual imagry used by the Woman's KKK and simply excluding 'black' from the old WKKK jargon while inserting 'oppression' as an added profile of all men. The term Feminazi is often used to describe Radical Feminist discrimination or vilification of men based upon their differing genetic code, much like the KKK denegration of blacks, or NAZI propaganda directed at jews or others excluded from the priviledged class."

I'd like to know, however, whether this is actually representative of the "Men's Rights" critique of radical feminism, or if this is just a pet criticism on the part of Loneranger4justice. If its the latter, it doesn't belong in a Wikipedia article. Peter G Werner 19:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fascism

Feminism and especially "Radical feminism" is widely compared to fascism. So there is no reason not to add it to "See also" section. --TRFA 19:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a sufficient section on criticism for this article. Placing a "See Also: Fascism" is making a POV declaration that Radical feminism is Fascism. If you can cite a source stating that RF is comparable to Fascism, then add it appropriately to the criticism section as a sourced claim. --Puellanivis 23:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Could this article use a quotes section? Perhaps even as a subsection of the Criticisms section? It seems to me that much understanding of radical feminism and it's criticisms could be gained by simply including some of the radical statements made by it's leading proponents. --Staggerbot 23:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

Could this article use a quotes section? Perhaps even as a subsection of the Criticisms section? It seems to me that much understanding of radical feminism and it's criticisms could be gained by simply including some of the radical statements made by it's leading proponents. --Staggerbot 23:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The selection of quotes would have to be carefully crafted, as including select quotes that project an absurd quote of radical-feminism out of context would likely be a POV action attempting to display them as "nutjobs", (see? look what they're saying!) Rather, quotes would need to be carefully selected from neutral sources, or explicitly justified statements by radical-feminists that are accepted as representative of their point of view by themselves. Any other use of quotes, could be written off as a "one-off" example, where someone says something silly. You could bend the quote "God does not play dice with the universe," into a completely absurd torrent of justification that the speaker is an idiot, while at the same time, you would be painting Albert Einstein as a lunatic.

So, any quotes that we would select should be statements rigerously defended by radical feminists, as they've conceded these statements as representative. And not some one-off statement that they made one time, and hadn't really thought about before hand. In all cases the attempt should not be to "paint" radical feminist as anything at all, but rather to objectively report their assertions. I feel this can be done just as easily with prose as with direct quotes. --Puellanivis 23:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I understand the concern of people being misquoted but I think the example of the Einstein quote (above) is an excellent one in this case. It is a well known quote attributed to him and if some one were to look up Einstein on Wikipedia they will find that quote there, as well they should. Why is there such a category as radical-feminism if not because radical feminists have made radical statements in their published writings and through statements to the press?...These radical statements and the ideas they encapsulate are the source of most of the criticisms and controversy of radical-feminism. They would be informative to the point of being essential when discussing criticisms of radical feminism. If a concern in radical-feminism is about the perceptions induced by radical-feminists making one-off statements that hadn't been thought of before hand (as described above), then that too is worth including on the page. --142.20.156.252 18:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

--Staggerbot 18:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

My concern isn't for one-off statements of unique ideas. But rather one-off statements that they don't actually support, or believe in. They were just saying it because it sounded good at the time, or they were caught up in some tide or issue, and were prone to making statements that upon later clarity, they decided weren't a good statement in the first place. So, in this way, Einstein's quote would be a bad example. Rather would be something like "there will be no market for a computer in the home," where those who made that statement in the past based on their previous beliefs, obviously realize that these have not conformed with reality.

So my concern is simply with representing radical-feminism with accurate quotes, I guess you could say. Yes, radical feminists are radical because they say radical things, and these can and maybe should be included in this article. But putting something that they don't feel represents them, or is a quote used extensively out-of-context, then I don't find that appropriate. --Puellanivis 19:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Actually, if they're prone to making one-off comments that they later deny or reject, then in that case, it would be notable, and including these one-off comments (as long as well attested) would be appropriate --Puellanivis 19:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I’m not sure your Einstein example is a bad one, but I agree with you that your computer quote example is a better one. As a famous quote by an accomplished computer engineer (Ken Olsen: "there is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home") it is revealing of both his personal style as a leader in the computer industry, and of the computer industry itself which was and is still going through rapid change. His prediction wasn’t born out, and indeed, some may judge him to look silly for having made it…but it is an important quote (for the above mentioned reasons) attributed to him. Again, it can be found in wikipedia and should not be removed if he later regretted saying it or because it wasn’t born out in reality. If he in fact did not say it, or it was edited to read "there is no reason for any individual to have a computer" then naturally it should be removed or corrected. In regards to quotes by radical-feminists, I agree with you that POV is an important concern. Perhaps a better category would be – CONTROVERSAL QUOTES-. I believe it would add a great deal of clarity to the Radical-Feminist article in terms of why Radical-Feminism is distinguished from other kinds of feminism, and why there is controversy and criticism concerning it.--Staggerbot 20:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the best quote would be "640k of memory is enough for anyone", which is attributed by Bill Gates, but has no credibility as being associated with him, he never thought it was true, and argues consistent that it is not true. So that, if any wikipedia page were to quote him as such, it should properly be contexted that it's widely attributed to him, but with no attestation. Yes, if a radical feminist were to have gotten up in front of a large group and say, "We need to kill all men." That is controversial and possibly notable.

Er... I guess the best way to say it, is that we shouldn't be searching hard and deep for obscure quotes just to show radical feminists in a bad light. They should be easily attributable, and relatively uncontroversial that they are sourced from a radical feminist, but they need not be uncontroversial in their content. Indeed, it's unlikely that any notable quotes they would be. --Puellanivis 20:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2.2 Action

"In addition, radical feminists also took direct action. In 1968, they protested against the Miss America pageant by throwing high heels and other feminine accoutrements into a freedom garbage bin."

Is this section clear enough? As a reminder, the bra burnings never took place. It seems to imply it. --EarthSprite^∞ 06:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)