Talk:Rapping
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[edit] Metre
EMINEM IS NOT THE BEST SELLING RAPPER IF I MAY ADD ITS STILL TUPAC
PROPAGANDA
I posted the following comments to the rapping peer review page. I'm not sure that I used peer review correctly and I'm reposting my comments here.
The external links section describes the BBC page as a wiki. Is this accurate?
The flow section has a link labelled "prosody", which points to a disambiguation page. I don't know which of the, presumably related, meanings of prosody is intended, but one of them is meter (poetry), which is linked from the next paragraph. If they both mean the same thing, only one of them needs to be a link, according to WP:MOS-L#Internal links.
In the same section, it would be nice to expand the discussion of metre. The article mentions Run-DMC as employing trochaic pentameter, but I found a web disussion, [1] which quotes Dana Gioia as using Run-DMC as an example of accentual metre (rather than accentual-syllabic metre, of which trochaic pentameter is an example):
- Rap consciously exploits stress-meter's ability to stretch and contract in syllable count. In fact, playing the syllable count against the beat is the basic metrical technique of rap. Like jazz, rap extravagantly syncopates a flexible rhythm against a fixed metrical beat thereby turning a traditional English folk meter into something distinctly African-American. By hitting the metrical beat strongly while exploiting other elements of word music, rappers play interesting and elaborate games with the total rhythm of their lines. Here is a syncopated couplet from Run DMC:
- He's the better of the best, best believe he's the baddest
- Perfect timing when I'm climbing I'm the rhyming acrobatist
- (14 and 16 syllables respectively)
- . . . .
- If rap were a written form of poetry, its complex syncopation would frequently push the meter to a breaking point. A reader would not always know exactly where the strong stresses fell. See how difficult it is to discern the four strong stresses in the first Run DMC couplet quoted, simply from the printed text . . . . Anglo-Saxon poets understood the problem inherent in strong-stress verse. That is at least one reason why they added alliteration to reinforce the meter. In rap the meter is also enforced by what its performers call "the beat," usually a pre-recorded digitally sampled rhythm-track. Traditional prosody describes the rhythm of poetry as the meaningful counterpoint of speech pattern against a fixed abstract meter. That same principle of expressive counterpoint is quite literally what rap does and its audience hears and enjoys.
I'd go ahead and edit, but I don't know how to tackle this. Tim Ivorson 2006-05-28
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- I'm not a music theorist, and I'm not sure there's a single music theorist on wikipedia who could properly exlplain that. But I think we'd do best just to make clear how varied and complex it is, perhaps even linking to that article in the external links.--Urthogie 18:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] todo list
Ok, it seems like it won't get featured. Here's our to-do list:
- Lead needs a better definition of rapping.
- Add a section dealing with cultural criticism, and the allegations that its contributed to a culture of crime. Have several viewpoints in this section.
- Add more analysis to the identity section-- assess the claims of kanye west and others under a factual, scientific eye.
- Replace subjective claims in the article(such as in the semantics section) with quotes.
- Reference the newly added fact tags. (We have all the necessary sources to do this, I think, we just need to copy refs over to some sentances)
- Explain the complexity of metre in the flow section.
- Make the article clearer so that people who have no idea what rap is would learn as much as the next guy.
- Add a section on song structure.
Go ahead and add to this list please, --Urthogie 13:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Lets start with basic elements. This article needs a solid definition of what rapping is. "rhythmic delivery of rhymes" doesnt really sound right to me, although I'm still thinking of a better way to say it. How do you guys feel about this? - Tutmosis 22:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- Sure thing, a better lead is necessary. I'll add that to the beginning of the list.--Urthogie 08:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Did I write Rap?
I'm a very old guy -- 72 -- to "talk" about rap, but a few years ago a friend thought I had written some material that might be set to rap music.
I'd be grateful if someone who knows the subject (on some boring afternoon) would check my website to see if it has any relation to rap.
What the site does is to "translate" the sayings of Ben Franklin into rhyming sound bites.
My website is www.benandverse.com.
It has two sides -- one on Ben -- that's the one I'm curious about. (The other called "Phony Pearls of Fictitious Wisom" has some jingles, too, but I wouldn't bother with it.)
I expect my friend was dreaming, and, if that's so, I'm sorry to have wasted your time.
Sincerely,
John McCall User:64.12.117.9. Λυδαcιτγ(TheJabberwock) 03:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Whether they're rap or not depends on how you deliver them. So I'd say your friend is right that they could be rap. All depends on how you say em out loud.--Urthogie 08:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- They could be. The first, "Treaty whitlers / Little Hitlers," reminds me of the lines "Dirty Dozen, eighty of us, Shady brothers, ladies love us," from "Purple Pills." I suggest listening to Purple Pills, or a similar song, and imagining how your rhymes would sound if deliverd like that. Λυδαcιτγ(TheJabberwock) 03:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rhymes at Your Command
Hi Rappers: You've been really nice to an old man in your answers about whether I was really writing rap. What you said was sincere and encouraging. I needed that. And I'll follow your good advice.
Can I do anything in return? Probably not -- rhyming probably comes to most of you without any prompting. But in case any of you rappers can't find the right rhyme right away, maybe this will help. (Of course, you can always go to one of the huge rhyming dictionaries. And that's the best place to go if your in a hurry to get a good rhyme. My little dictionary has less than two thousand words.)
It's on the part of the website I mentioned in my other letter, "Phony Pearls of Fictitious Wisdom" at www.benandverse.com/writings/index.htm.
I call it a "Fictional Rhyming Dictionary" because it strings rhyming words together to tell -- or at least hint at -- stories.
What good does that do?
Well, iIf you shmooz through the dictionary once in a while, it may make it easier for the rhymes to come quicker to you -- at your command. (The reason is the idea that words associated together -- in stories for instance -- get remembered easier.)
Anyhow, it works for me.
Good luck to you all! And a ton of thanks from me.
John McCall
PS The stories are pretty ridiculous, and I doubt if you'll find any poetry anywhere. But who knows? You might even get the germ of a song from one of the stories -- but I sure don't guarantee that!
- Thanks, John. I'm not a rapper myself, but I'm sure someone can use your dictionary. By the way, the correct link is "http://benandverse.com/writings/index.htm" (writings, not writing). Λυδαcιτγ 21:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)Thanks for the encouragement and the correction. I've edited above. Or tried, too. I'm not too high tech. John
[edit] Word choice and slang
- Whereas some rappers would simply say,
-
- I'm hot, who wanna get burned?
- I'll fire one in your knot, and watch your whole fuckin head turn (Fat Joe, "John Blaze", Don Cartagena)
- Other rappers go for a less literal and more visual or metaphorical approach to making a statement:
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- Once they caught us off guard, the Mac-10 was in the grass and
- I ran like a cheetah with thoughts of an assassin (Nas, "N.Y. State of Mind", Illmatic)
- Preference toward one or the other
I don't understand this part of PCP MC's edit. Is the "one" literal and the "other" non-literal (imagerary? imagerical?)? Both seem neither literal nor cryptic to me. Fat Joe's imagery is metaphor, but Nas's is simile. Could somebody clarify? Tim Ivorson 2006-06-22
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- I'll explain why I put it that way...Fat Joe's rhyme is not much of a simile, mostly he's saying "I'll shoot you in the head" and leaves little to figure out--no need to relate two things in your mind. Whereas when Nas says "I ran like a cheetah with thoughts of an assassin," it's not straight out saying "I ran fast so I could kill so-and-so"..the listener is left to relate "cheetah" with running speedily and "thoughts of an assassin" with thinking of killing someone. It's not very complex but it's still a choice of term usage. PCP MC 20:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] started a new section
Check it out-- cultural criticism. How should we expand it/approach it?--Urthogie 19:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
== New Section == - cultural criticism
Both G.l.a.d. vs. Eminem and Bill O'Reily vs Ludacris could be used. Also NWA vs. FBI. Tipper Gore and the cencorship issue "Tipper Stickers" should also be included. I also know Oprah has issues with some of Rap. (I think primarily ludacris) --Robtl400 18:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Masculinity and Rap
I'd like to note that no one has analysed the gender dynamics of rap culture in this article. Rap is blatantly masculine with very few women rappers and very few themes that are not masculinist. I'm not an expert in rap, otherwise I'd contribute to the gender section on rap.
____ Exactly, you're obviously no expert. There have been many female rappers since the art was formed. There are "masculinist" themes as you say, but by no means are they the overwhelming majority.
[edit] Origins
According to this article, rapping, is ...Derived from African, and Jamaican roots.
Erm, is it? Who says? Just Jamaica - not the Carribean? What part of Africa? Are there other influences? Isn't the English language (a significant part of European culture) an influence?
I've requested citation for this, but a user has reverted this without reason. Can we please provide a source for this statement, and be a little more specific? This article is designated as needing work, and I think to move the article forward this isn't unreasonable. 86.133.72.40 20:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Read the article, it explains the roots and influences.--74.128.175.60 01:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I think there should be somthing more on the beat poets other then just a breif mention under a section 10 years after their main era, it just seams to me that while they might not have influenced the creation of rap, they where reciting and improvising poetry to music, jazz, in the late 50s.
[edit] Rap/Rapping
I searched for "Rap" and it has no article, so maybe it would be best to redirect it to here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bélancourt (talk • contribs) 17:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Journal papers
A quick search on Google scholar brought up some journal papers that may be of some use to this article re: language and rhyme patterns (although probably a little OTT):
- On Some Serious Next Millennium Rap Ishhh - "By examining the Hip Hop poetics on Pharoahe Monch’s album, Internal Affairs (1999), this article demonstrates the linguistic inventiveness and innovativeness of contemporary African American lyricists"
- What's Beef: Discourse Practices of Battling in Hip Hop Language
- "The Chain Remain the Same": Communicative Practices in the Hip Hop nationLaalaaa 01:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
- These would be especially helpful to the flow and culture sections. props, --Urthogie 18:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] tupac or eminem
The article says Eminem sold more, but according to Guiness, it's Tupac. Am I missing something here?--Urthogie 02:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- Since there's been no response on this point, I've updated it per Guiness. I'll source it when I have a chance.--Urthogie 04:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Updated to do list
I seriously think that, even though this article is getting bigger, it still has serious potential to become featured once the new content is brought up to par, and the old content is reviewed. Check it:
- Replace subjective claims with quotes. It's much better, neutral, and more interesting.
- Double check all references, clear up references section, and reference all uncited claims.
- Make the article clear enough so that people who have no idea what rap is would learn as much as hip hop headz.
- Add a section on its relation to hip hop production, for example song structure.
- More images (fair use of course)
- Make sure all the links are good, like we aren't linking to disambiguations, or the wrong use of the word, etc.
- Needs more involving, exciting, dramatic, brilliant prose. Give it a real voice, people.
- More sound files is always good.
[edit] Links to integrate content from
- Authenticity Within Hip-Hop and Other Cultures Threatened with Assimilation
- On Some Serious Next Millennium Rap Ishhh - "By examining the Hip Hop poetics on Pharoahe Monch’s album, Internal Affairs (1999), this article demonstrates the linguistic inventiveness and innovativeness of contemporary African American lyricists"
- What's Beef: Discourse Practices of Battling in Hip Hop Language
- "The Chain Remain the Same": Communicative Practices in the Hip Hop nation
- African-American Jazz and Rap
- A LANGUAGE IN TRANSITION: THE CREATION OF IDENTITY AND CULTURE IN THE POETICS OF HIP HOP
--Urthogie 04:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fake Citation
Pardon me, but the citation offered to support the claim in the article that the Pope denounced rap points to a fake, humorous, PARODY of a Larry King transcript. It's written by Rob Long of the National Review, who's written other fake Larry King transcripts for them as well. If the Pope did indeed denounce rap it wasn't here. So I'd take that sentence out until some real, nonfictional evidence can be found. 128.95.69.133 18:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing this out. I'll remove it..it was added by some discrete vandal apparently.--Urthogie 21:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
