Talk:Reparative therapy/Archive2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 Citation for pseudoscience RT
2 Community ban of the Joan of Arc vandal
3 Article needs work
4 Sex and love
5 Article title - Idea for renaming to "Sexual reorientation therapy"
6 Coercive techniques vs. therapy for voluntary clients
7 Who says what
8 Criticism and controversy
9 Merge proposal
10 Is RT coercive?
11 Getting this article to GA status
12 Introductory Paragraph
13 CNN image in the "Techniques" section
14 "Children" vs. "Minors"

Citation for pseudoscience RT

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html

Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel

In text: "Reparative Therapy

The term "reparative therapy" refers to psychotherapy aimed at eliminating homosexual desires and is used by people who do not think homosexuality is one variation within human sexual orientation, but rather still believe homosexuality is a mental disorder. The most important fact about "reparative therapy," also sometimes known as "conversion" therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a "cure."

So RT ist pseudoscience GLGerman 19:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

At no point does the above text call it "pseudoscience", and the article by Dr. Epstein cited farther above explains what the APA position does mean. Unless you can find a quote using the term "pseudoscience" you cannot justify using that term. Voln 19:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

For Voln..in the text you can read "there is no need for a "cure".GLGerman 19:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Which has nothing to do with the issue of "pseudoscience". Voln 19:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh maybe you think so, but you are wrong. All these organisations say, that RT isn´t good for homosexual people and they all are against RT: more than 477.000 health and mental health professionals and that there is no need for cure. GLGerman 00:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html

In the paper you can also read: "The potential risks of "reparative therapy" are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient."GLGerman 00:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

None of which has anything to do with the issue of "pseudoscience". Voln 00:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That ´s your own oppinion, Voln...read also this part of APA:

"As these statements make clear, health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people's sexual orientation through "reparative therapy" and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm. Many of the professional associations listed in the Resources section at the end of this factsheet are able to provide helpful information and local contacts to assist school administrators, health and mental health professionals, educators, teachers, and parents in dealing with school controversies in their communities."GLGerman 00:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't make any mention whatsoever of "pseudoscience". Find a quote that uses the term "pseudoscience" and then we can discuss it. Voln 00:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It s already discussed in article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-gay (there you can find the category:pseudoscience)GLGerman 22:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The American Psychiatric Association has stated that:

Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so. GLGerman 22:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The "pseudoscience" category was only in the Ex-Gay article because you yourself had added it there on September 20. You cannot cite your own edit there to justify adding it here, nor does the quote you added again above address the subject of pseudoscience. That's enough of this nonsense - you've been given a chance to cite a quote which specifically labels it "pseudoscience" and you have failed to do so. Voln 23:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

RT is pseudoscience and dangerous for homosexual people. See APA

RT is pseudoscience GLGerman 17:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Repeating this again and again does not prove what you say, but only proves, that you have a personal problem. Unless you bring facts you will not find the category in the article. --84.160.17.111 19:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

You should urgently stop inserting this category into the article again and again. This ist vandalism as long as you do not bring any proof for this position, which is opposed by a number of users here. --Hansele 22:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh hy Hansele, so now you show your username after a long time of IP-numbers. We struggle for a long time on german wikipedia. And you should know Reparative Therapy is pseudoscience.GLGerman 05:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Neither the german nor the english wikipedia categorize Reparative therapy as pseudoscience. And neither here nor there you did offer any proof for your categorization. The only tool you use to establish this categorization is called editwar and - if you carry on with this - vandalism. --Hansele 23:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If the APA supports it, then it's not "pseudoscience" (i.e., universally condemned) but merely a "controversial practice":

the organization would support psychological therapy for those experiencing unwanted homosexual attractions

You might personally object to this upgrade, but our job as contributors is to report what the mainstream of science is saying. --Uncle Ed 15:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The APA supports therapy to help people deal with their sexuality, not to attempt to change it. Our job as contributors is not to twist everything into whatever shape we want it to take. Mainstream science is still saying conversion therapy is unproven and probably damaging. Herorev 01:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If that's the mainstream position, then the article should say so. --Uncle Ed 19:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to revisit this issue. Wikipedia defines pseudoscience as "any body of knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that claims to be scientific but does not follow the scientific method.[1] Pseudosciences may appear scientific, but they do not adhere to the testability requirement of the scientific method[2] and are often in conflict with current scientific consensus."

RT seems to satisfy that definition. It is (1) a practice that claims to be scientific, (2) criticized by the scientific community for unscientific research methodology, and is (3) in conflict with current scientific consensus. It is testable, but so are other pseudosciences, so testability doesn't seem to be a necessary condition. Looking to other defining characteristics, it (i) makes vague claims lacking specific measurements; (ii) fails to make use of operational definitions ("success"); (iii) doesn't use Occam's razor (repression rather than change; issues with bisexuals); (iv) over-reliance on anecdotal evidence; (v) selective use of data; (vi) evasion of peer review/science by press conference; (vii) proponents and subjects are in tight social groups; (viii) assertion of conspiracy claims on the part of the scientific community; (ix) attacking the motives of critics ("homosexual agenda", etc.). This clearly seems to satisfy the definition, so I've made the change.

(The Koocher quote cited above was an off-the-cuff remark taken out of context and later clarified by Koocher after NARTH people jumped on the quote. Koocher was explicit that the APA's stance on reparative therapy remains unchanged: it is unsupported by science and may be harmful.[1]) Fireplace 16:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Horev said ":The APA supports therapy to help people deal with their sexuality, not to attempt to change it." The question I would want to ask is if people can have gender re-assignment surgery (a friend of mine had this done back in the UK) - radically changing their physical appearance from that of a man to a woman (or visa versa) - why can't people chose to be heterosexual versus homosexual? For a variety of reasons people are "distressed" by their sexuality and wish to be otherwise. What is so wrong with the desire to undergo reparative therapy or some other therapy which would lessen same sex attractions.

The reading I have done around the subject would suggest that there is a great deal of pseudoscience on both sides of the fence. The declasification of homosexuality as a mental disorder in the first place seems to have been surrounded by a good deal of politics and abuses of scientific method. Robert Williams 06:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that anyone is saying that there's anything wrong with it, as you say. The opinion of the medical community is simply that attempting to change sexual orientation is (a) unnecessary, (b) usually ineffective, and (c) possibly harmful. eaolson 14:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are 2 reasonable citations I can see that express the view that RT is pseudoscience. There's a chap called Ford who has stated it in a published book [2], and the Doug Haldeman ref as posted in the ref section. Considering RT is also considered to be discredited, its pretty clear the article should state that much at least. Docleaf 15:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

If we're complaining that RT is a pseudoscience you can't use terms like "opinion," "possibly harmful" or "considered discredited" without citations to bonafide research. If it is discredited then lets see the research that proves it to be harmful - if it is merely the "opinion" of the psychiatric community that RT is no good then I'm afraid that doesn't wash. I would challenge Eaolson's assertion that "[no one] is saying that there's anything wrong with it". By claiming that RT is pseudoscience you are saying there is something wrong with it - it is not based on good research and is fundamentally flawed in concept. You are attempting to damn by association. I would assert that this is not taking an unbiased line.

There certainly do seem to be things that are scientifically "wobbly" about RT but it would seem that the whole subject of homosexuality, same sex attractions, and various therapies which are offered to deal with them (either in simply coming to terms with homosexuality or in attempting to change sexual orientation) is surrounded by politicisation and questionable approaches to the use of research to justify positions.

I would rather see a less "charged" and more balanced tone in the article. It would be better to keep it to the facts and there isn't enough evidence on either side of the argument to say that RT is harmful pseudoscience. Robert Williams 10:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The mainstream medical view is extensively cited throughout the article. Fireplace 14:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

However, this view like some of RT is not backed up by research. I would contend that the whole subject of homosexuality and within that RT has been politicised. We hear that it is the opinion of the APA that attempting to change one's sexuality may be harmful - but not that having thoroughly researched the matter the APA conclude that ... Do you see my point? The APA cannot point to reliable unbiased scientific research to say categoricallly that RT is harmful. NARTH on the other had cite many examples (all-be-it anecdotal) of men and women who have quite happily changed their sexual orientation using RT. Who is one to believe? Robert Williams 03:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not an encyclopedia's job to evaluate the scientific consensus position. There is unequivocal evidence that such a consensus exists. See article. Fireplace 04:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Can any RT organization point to reliable unbiased scientific research to say categorically that RT is beneficial? As Robert William's points out above; all such 'evidence' is anecdotal, and there are plenty of ex-Ex-Gays who would challenge even that evidence. If we are asking for positive proof from one side then we must also ask it from the other. --ParAmmon (cheers thanks a lot!) 05:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Community ban of the Joan of Arc vandal

This article has been targeted in recent weeks by CC80, a sockpuppet of the Joan of Arc vandal. This and similar articles may be targeted again by other sockpuppets of the same person.

A vandal who has damaged Wikipedia's Catholicism, Christianity, cross-dressing, and homosexuality articles for over two years has been identified and community banned. This person will probably attempt to continue disruption on sockpuppet accounts. Please be alert for suspicious activity. Due to the complexity of this unusual case, the best place to report additional suspicious activity is probably to my user talk page because I was the primary investigating administrator. Durova^Charge! 17:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Voln, who has been very active on this article, has also been confirmed as a sockpuppet of the Joan of Arc vandal--the CheckUser case is at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/AWilliamson. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That´s interesting: i talked the whole time with sockpuppets in this article.GLGerman 07:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't change anything about the missing facts for the categorization als pseudoscience you again and again are editwaring into the article. --89.14.68.176 11:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Article needs work

This article has many positive aspects but could use some work... Only102 11:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Would you care to elaborate? What you just said could be true of any article, because they're all works in progress. What do you see as needing improvement in this article? Joie de Vivre 23:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Sex and love

Cut from article:

It is worth noting that reparative therapists hold that a propensity for an emotional bisexuality would seem to exist in all men, for example, as is evidenced by the male need for camaraderie and bonding.

I have yet to read anything from a reparative therapist likening men's need for camaraderie and bonding to "bisexuality". This sounds like unsourced gay rights advocacy. But correct me if I'm wrong; I'm no expert, nor do I claim to widely read. --Uncle Ed 15:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Article title - Idea for renaming to "Sexual reorientation therapy"

Should we move this to sexual reorientation therapy due to "connotations" of reparative therapy? --Uncle Ed 18:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

No, for a few reasons: "reparative therapy" is what the techniques described in this article are most typically called. Whether their use is "reparative" (or destructive) is a subject of debate between proponents and opponents of the use of these techniques. However, whether it should even be called "therapy" is also a matter of dispute, since The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, The American Counseling Association, and The National Association of Social Workers all reject the use of "reparative therapy" (See Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel 1999, American Psychological Association). The name used for the techniques could be considered problematic, but the article title is currently an accurate reflection of what the techniques are most commonly called. Changing the article title to sexual reorientation therapy would not be an improvement. Joie de Vivre 19:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's a relief. I didn't really want to move it. But somebody keeps changing Richard Cohen's article to remove the term "reparative therapy" on pretty much the grounds you just outlined. --Uncle Ed 19:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know enough about Cohen or his actions to say whether that change is appropriate.

Rereading what I wrote, I would like to say that I personally believe the term "reparative therapy" to be inherently POV: it assumes that homosexuality is something to be "repaired", when whether or not it is is a matter of opinion. However, it is the term most commonly used. I am not sure what Wikipedia's responsibility is, as far as newly-invented terms. Wikipedia does have an article on the word "Nigger", although, where I come from, to even speak the word aloud is astoundingly offensive. However, that word has a historical basis... not so with "reparative therapy". Joie de Vivre 23:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Reparative" isn't the only POV word in "reparative therapy". Wiktionary defines "therapy" as "Treatment of disease or disability, physical or mental." Webster defines it as "therapeutic treatment especially of bodily, mental, or behavioral disorder". If the article is moved, I suggest moving it to sexual reorientation. Herorev 01:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the term reparative has a slightly different meaning.

Moberly saw homosexuality as a "reparative drive" to meet the heretofore unmet needs of the child for love and bonding and thus "identification" with males.
Nicolosi elaborates here.
The theoretical basis of RT is that homosexuality is a symptom of the client's "drive to fulfill unmet homo-emotional needs". (Cohen)

Whether the theoretical basis is right or wrong, there are at least three sources who roughly agree and use the term reparative in the same way.

The article will be much improved when we add to the statements of disapproval by explaining WHY the various sources disagree with RT. I'm looking for examples like:

People do not have homo-emotional needs; therefore, the theory underpinning RT is false on its face.
Attempts to change volunteers' sexual orientation have been shown by clinical research to be ineffective and/or harmful {cite needed}

It's hard for me to write neutrally here, since I am quite obviously an advocate. But I do my best. :-) --Uncle Ed 16:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Coercive techniques vs. therapy for voluntary clients

Some of the techniques used in the past to "convert" or "cure" homosexuals seem (to me, anyway) to have been forced on unwilling people. Kind of like clitoris amputation to "prevent" a girl growing up with adulterous tendencies. (If that link is red, try female circumcision.)

Should the article on RT include the coercive techniques? Maybe the history sections can make a distinction between actions foisted upon victims, and counseling sought out by "those willing to change" (as Cohen puts it). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ed Poor (talk • contribs) 16:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

That's a slippery slope. Who could "force" an independent adult into therapy? My guess is that most of the adults who enter this sort of programming are Christians who were taught from an early age that homosexuality is immoral. In order for us to accept that a person's decision to enter the program was made absolutely, definitively without coercion, we must disregard that individual's childhood indoctrination into a particular belief system. Not everyone will be willing to do that.

A more interesting distinction to make might be between those who enter the program out of religious convictions that homosexual behavior is immoral, and those who enter the program for different reasons. Can such a distinction be made? Are there any documented cases of people whose decision to enter the program was informed by a reason other than religious devotion? I would be interested to know. Joie de Vivre 20:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm also interested in the ethics of this. Here's something I just googled:

APA Ethical Principle E: Psychologists respect the dignity and worth of all people, and the rights of individuals to privacy, confidentiality, and self-determination. A client may very well determine that a non-GLB lifestyle is more dignified and fitting of her or his values and goals. [3]

Considering that I just revised a section of the article, maybe you'd do me the favor of checking whether I made it more neutral or (*sigh*) accidentally introduced pro-RT bias. I'm not very good on discerning whether my own writing is neutral. --Uncle Ed 20:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Who says what

The National Association of Social Workers in its Policy Statement on Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Issues: endorses policies in both the public and private sectors that ensure nondiscrimination; that are sensitive to the health and mental health needs of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people; and that promote an understanding of lesbian, gay, and bisexual cultures. Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people to seek sexual orientation changes.11 Sexual orientation conversion therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and freely chosen. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful. [4]

I found this quote by NASW at the APA website. Perhaps we should attribute this view to the social workers, not to the psychologists. --Uncle Ed 22:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

If the article misrepresents a source, you're absolutely right. But I don't think there's anything the NASW says above that isn't also said by psychologists elsewhere. Fireplace 22:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disputing anything, just trying to keep the sources straight. There seem to be slightly different "flavors of disapproval" from psychiatric, psychological and social work organizations. All sources, including RT proponents, agree that there's no science supporting RT, right? --Uncle Ed 22:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Fireplace 22:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Criticism and controversy

This quote seems to sum it up:

Supporters of reorientation try to present it as a valuable service for distressed lesbians and gay men who freely seek their services, but the therapists’ implicit acceptance of sexual orientation as the cause of distress, and the associated agreement to attempt sexual orientation change as a cure, exacerbates distress and reinforces and confirms the internalised homophobia that is in fact the root of the problem [5]

Where's the best place to put it? And should it left in the form of an anti-RT argument, or should it be broken up into its 2 parts?

Supporters of reorientation call it a valuable service for people who freely seek their services
Opponents say that internalised homophobia is the root of the problem:
- Therapists implicitly accept sexual orientation as the cause of distress.
- The agreement to attempt sexual orientation change as a cure exacerbates distress.

Science doesn't support RT, and the major organizations oppose it. Yet hundreds of people swear by it. Sounds like an interesting controversy. --Uncle Ed 13:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh that the curious reader of Wikipedia could find a "balanced" perspective on the topic of reparative therapy. Such is not the case in the Wikipedia article, which appears to be another casualty of the pro-gay propagandist of my generation. If one is truly secure in his or her position, he or she will not be threatened by a fair and adequate presentation of the most compelling evidence to the contrary.WarriorLeo 06:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If you have reliable, sourced, information, go ahead and add it. But reparative therapy isn't accepted by the mainstream medical community as effective or necessary, and the article does and should reflect this. eaolson 14:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

See discussion here. Fireplace 17:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi there I have never entered a discussion on Wikipedia like this before. But I came across this APA article on reversion therapy and thought it should get a mention.

I also note leading UK gay rights spokesman Peter Tacthell says he knows many gays who have gone straight. Kinsey also found many men who did the same.

So my points are twofold;-

1) The APA paper which advocates therapy for those that want it. 2) That many gay people do actually go straight without therapy.

I dont want to be rude and barge right in, but I think these facts should be considered. I will come back in a few days to see where we go from here.

sincerely Phragellion

Should Reorientation Therapy Be Available? -- APA Journal Article Says Yes A 2002 article published by the American Psychological Association journal "Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training" defends the ethics and effectiveness of sexual reorientation therapy. The paper is entitled "Ethical Issues In Attempts To Ban Reorientation Therapies," by Mark A. Yarhouse, Psy.D. of Regent University and Warren Throckmorton, Ph.D. of Grove City College.

The article's published abstract reads as follows:

The purpose of this article is to identify the ethical issues in efforts to ban reorientation therapies. The 3 primary arguments cited in the literature in favor of such a ban are discussed: (a) homosexuality is no longer considered a mental illness, (b) those who request change do so because of internalized homophobia, and (c) sexual orientation is immutable.

The authors present three arguments in favor of providing reorientation and related services: (a) respect for the autonomy and self-determination of persons, (b) respect for valuative frameworks, creeds, and religious values regarding the moral status of same-sex behavior, and (c) service provision given the scientific evidence that efforts to change thoughts, behaviors, and feeling-based sexual orientation can be successful.

What you have written sounds sensible. We only must be careful not to violate the neutrality policy of this website.

We must make it clear that reparative therapy is condemned by the mainstream, and that it is only a minority of professionals who endorse it. As long as we don't try to make it seem like the APA has no objections, then your idea is fine.

An interested, related question is why the groups voted 3 decades ago to change their position. Was the vote a reflection of scientific work? Or is the "scientific position" of the organization mostly the result of political lobbying? This is a significant question, because advocates point to the APA position as "proof" than homosexuality is normal and that therapists should not offer (or even agree) to "help homosexuals transition" to heterosexuality.

It's like the global warming controversy. One side says there's a mainstream "consensus" favoring the theory that most modern warming is manmade. This has the result that very few people look into the science of the matter. Even at Wikipedia, the views of Harvard and MIT scientists (and some NASA scientists) is considered "opposition to the consensus". --Uncle Ed 15:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the link Phragellion provide is outdated. The article is available here. --Uncle Ed 15:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Is RT coercive?

Here is a quote from the article's main source (NGL Task Force): Shidlo and Schroeder outlined the various reasons why their study participants decided to change their sexual orientation through conversion therapy. Some, who were already out of the closet prior to therapy, reported that they did not feel connected to the gay and lesbian community and sought conversion to find a group to which they felt they could belong. Participants who were not “out” prior to therapy were primarily motivated by guilt and fear based on their religious faith. A number of participants also were motivated by a desire to save their marriage and relationship with their children. Those participants who attended religious universities were coerced into treatment by the threat of expulsion. Strikingly, nearly 25 percent of conversion therapy interventions were initiated by the therapists whom study participants were already seeing after disclosing their sexual orientation.238 [6]

Apparently clients have various reasons for seeking RT, and less than 1/4 are prompeted by their therapists.

What have the professional societies said about the ethics of self-directed efforts to do RT? Do they condemn it even for "those who want to change" and go looking for a therapist to help them with this? I'm looking for a statement like this:

RT is bad, and we condemn any therapist who tries it even if his client comes to him, requesting it
RT is ineffective and usually harmful, but if the client initiates the request, then a therapist is not ethically bound to refuse.
RT is usually ineffective and often harmful, but [our organization] has no other objections provided therapists do not pressure clients to do it.

Which is it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ed Poor (talk • contribs) 15:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

Phragellion again here;-6

1) I dont see how inclusion of this article would violate the neutrality of this entry??? 2) I think it should stand on its own right as an APA article which apparently endorses freedom of choice in sexuality. You cant suggest that all RT is coercive. People must have a civil liberty to choose their own sexuality. If you want to cite cases of coercian fine, but to question to right to choose RT is not sustainable. This is the APA journal's point. 3) I think you raise some valid questions about the APA and its actions in the 1970s but I am not sure this is the right entry for them. I think it should be documented on Wikipedia but not ncessarily here. 4) Most importantly, this article seems to focus almost exclusively on ex-gays but only in relation to conversion therapy. But Kinsey found in one of his studies that 10% of American males surveyed were "more or less exclusively homosexual for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55";- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Behavior_in_the_Human_Male UK gays rights campaigner Peter Tacthell also knows many gays who have gone straight;- http://www.petertatchell.net/gay%20gene/borngay.htm 5) So I think the conversion therapy is a bit of a red herring in the broader picture; There are obviously many ex-gays who never had any therapy, according to Kinsey and Tatchell. 6) Ed, you say you are "looking for a statement like this". To me that suggests you have a preconception of what this entry should say regardless of what research you come across. Should not this APA stand on its own merits? It says people should be free to choose, so why cant you grant it any credibility? Is the APA journal not trustworthy? 7) The fact that many people change sexuality without intervention shows it can happen apparently without any harm. It does not appear to be a huge leap to believe that some of these people might benefit from a guiding hand as they are doing so??? 8) Finally I dont see that the NGL Task Force is an accurate quote from this article, i cant find it there. Are the comments you supplied about the article as they are not in the article itself.

Where do we go from here?

sincerely Phragellion

Re: your #6, I would suggest that Ed is actually looking for clarification. He knows that generally the APA disagrees with RT, but would like to know which of his three statements most accurately reflects their position with regards to patients who seek this option. These statements are different from one another, and it would be useful for the article to have one of these (or something similar). --ΨΦorg 20:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

With respect to this point, I believe the second paragraph of the article does precisely that: "Their stance is that sexual orientation is unchangeable, and that attempts to do so are often damaging to the person's well-being. The American Psychiatric Association states that "ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation."" (citations omitted) Fireplace 20:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Fireplace You have only addressed two points and the APA journal article I quote exists and should surely be mentioned in context of everything else. But I think the most important point I made was perhaps in points 4,5 & 7.

Phragellion

Getting this article to GA status

With the help of others, I've substantially rewritten a lot of this article over the past month. It used to be a total mess; now I think it's clearly organized, not too redundant, very well sourced, and avoids weasel-words and soapboxing (a big problem in these types of articles). I've also tried to avoid the "Proponents say X, but critics say Y" dichotomy as much as possible, to avoid WP:Undue weight problems. The intro paragraph also provides stock language for other articles mentioning RT.

I'd like to get the article up to Good article status, and maybe even beyond. Major to-do items include:

~~Filling out techniques section, with sources~~
Adding more information on the impact of RT in political debate (I've recently added some introductory info on this).
~~Writing a history section.~~ Including well-sourced information on Freud's influence on the historical development of these ideas.

Fireplace 17:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Just some points I vaguely noticed:

~~Images need to alternate (left, right, left, right).~~
~~References need formatting properly, see WP:REF.~~
~~All inline citations should be after the exclamation point. If you'r eplanning to take this to FA they can get quit emoody about this.~~
There are very short paragraphs, only one sentence in some cases. These ideally need to be expanded, merged or deleted.

Just thought I'd mention that to give you something to work on. I'm sure this can make FA, though I'm sure you want to jump the GA hoop first! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 05:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I think to get it up to GA standard you'd need to remove some of the bias particularly in the opening paragraph. It would need to fairly present the point of view of the proponents of RT like NARTH and remove emotive terms like "christian right." Quotations from groups like LGBT Taskforce need to be more clearly identified as quotations rather than part of the body of text.

I'm glad to see work has been carried out to remove outdated techniques like avertion therapy which are irrelevant these days. I wonder if they are even worthy of mention if the last documented cases were in 1992. It is a life-time ago for some!

Photographs of RTs failures are shown - but there are undoubted sucesses - these should be shown too.

Robert Williams 04:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Introductory Paragraph

The introduction is mainly saying how RT is viewed by groups like the APA and AMA, and listing its fallacies rather than talking about RT itself. It seems to me like propaganda pushing. 68.19.164.87 05:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

CNN image in the "Techniques" section

Where's the fair use rational for that image being there? Also, how is the copyright status of the youtube video linked at the end of the section? ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 17:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The image's fair use rationale is listed here. I'm less sure about the YouTube link. There's also some suggestion that the video clips are taken out of context. I'll remove it for now. Fireplace 19:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The image page (which you linked to), has the standard {{tv-screenshot}} template, but it doesn't specifically say how the image is acceptible for use in this article, and I'm inclined to think that it probably isn't. How is that image fair use here? ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 20:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Just going off the tag, the issue is whether the image is used "for identification and critical commentary on the station ID or program and its contents." Here, the image is used to show that reparative therapy has entered far enough into popular culture to be featured on one of CNN's more popular programs. This amounts to "commentary on the... program and its contents." Fireplace 20:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"Children" vs. "Minors"

I don't think it's accurate to label 16 and 17 year olds "children", so I've renamed the section "Scandals involving minors." --Lode Runner 09:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)