Talk:Robert Baldwin

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From The Baldwins and the Great Experiment this account describes how John Robert Baldwin's (William Warren's father & Robert's grandfather) struggle to arrive from Ireland:

In 1798, Robert John Baldwin (the emmigrant) left Cork in a convoy of 200 ships with his son William Warren (age 23), John (11), Elizabeth (16), Alice (14) Anna Maria (13), and Mary Warren (7) but their ship Lavinia had to return to Cork after 3 weeks. After 6 weeks in the company of his brother John, they set sail again in a convoy of 100 ships. This time the captain (considered a Bonaparte man) tried to pirate the ship towards Lisbon, but the crew led by Robert and others mutineed, and regained control of the ship. Foul weather forced them back to back to Cornwall where the ship actually sank in the harbour. Finally in May of 1799, the family got passage on the Grantham and arrived in Halifax while pursued by the the HMS Boston (a British frigate) navigated by another of Baldwin's son Augustus(see pp 38-41)

I am not sure how accurate this paraphrase is because i think William was in medical school at the University of Edinborough and did not venture to Canada until later and so did not cross on the Grantham...

[edit] first "Prime Minister"

I have attributed the statement that Baldwin " is regarded by some as Canada's first pre-confederation Prime Minister, along with LaFontaine" to John Ralston Saul, who I think is the main person to make this argument:

"In 1842 LaFontaine became the first prime minister of a responsible Canadian government. At first, he wanted an arraingment involving the involvment of two equals, but Baldwin refused, insisting that the other take charge." Reflections of a Siamese Twin, p335. Stevecudmore 06:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Baldwin opposed the idea of a double majority which is why he thought himself as one of LAFontaine's minsters. Baldwin would not have considered himself as a pre-confed prime minister. The quote from Saul states this, so it is curious that you think this supports the idea that Baldwin was a pre-confed PM. The theory of a double majority proved to be impracticable when applied under J.S McDonald's ministry, and although popular for a time in Lower Canada, the principle was never became an established principle of the constitution, so what basis is there for the assertion that Baldwin was a PM? He was like LaFontaine Attorney-General for his respective province, and was the leader of the majority from his section; but LaFontaine carried the majority of the overall support, and that is why Baldwin conceded to him first place...and the difference between the two majorities was quite substantial i think (18-30-something (?).

Furthermore the part about Badwin resignation is incorrect, because his resignation was made made more for reasons of pride and protest against the more radical wing of the party that was then emerging. (see Wilson pg.290). The Bill to abolish the court of Chancery was defeated by a narrow majority of 33-30 but most of Baldwin's colleagues in Upper Canada had voted for it. The idea that Baldwin resigned because he recognizedthe prinple of a double majority is simply false.... 142.151.138.142

Okay, I see where you're coming from, the facts Saul cites certainly point to Baldwin not being a PM, because he wasn't, in fact, a de jure PM. What we're trying to support is that he may be regarded as (effectively) a co-prime-minister. Saul's point is that even if Baldwin insisted on a clear pecking order, his partnership with LaFontiane was always, in practice, equal. Saul's book goes on to constistantly refer to Balwin and LaFontaine as partners, and it is typical to see reference to the "LaFontaine-Baldwin ministry" rather than the LaFontaine's primiership in other texts, so I think it's clear this idea is out there.

I'm fully aware there are probably much better sources to cite, but I don't have them on hand. If you have one, feel free. :)Stevecudmore 20:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

i really would not worry too much about trying to settle the PM question, and i think by trying to do so you run the risk of anochronism...there are other more interesting question to be asked...here is a link to a full pdf version of Stephen Leacock's book "Baldwin-Lafontaine-Hincks" http://www.archive.org/details/makersofcanada14leacuoft. This is a good source for info and commentray on politics at the time..

Hey that's a great resourse and a great site. Thanks for posting it Stevecudmore 00:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

maybe somone can incorporate some of it into the article because it could use some improvements...

[edit] Baldwin's Family Tree

The reference to the "Modern day famous Baldwin family" was removed. Idle speculation about a connection just because someone who is famous shares the same surname is inappropriate. Baldwin certainly had relatives in the U.S, one i know was a Senator, and his daughter, Maria, lived in Washington for some time when Polk was President (she would hang out with the President's wife), but i do not know if she stayed or married down there; actually, I am not completely sure what became of all of Baldwin's children...

There is a very prominent Baldwin family in Ancient times, the Kings of Jerusalem, various rulers, royalty, and so on. One branch of this family came to Ireland with William the Conqueror. William married his cousin Matilda of Flanders, daughter of Count Baldwin V of Flanders, and their children, some of them, came with William to Ireland and settled there. There is strong circumstantial evidence for a connection between the Baldwin's and the descendants of William the Conqueror. Apparently Robert Baldwin when in Ireland in 1836 did some family research and reached the conclusion that he was a descendant of that ancient family...but what evidence is there for that I am not sure...though maybe he had found something back then...(see Wilson or J.M Baldwin for these details)