Talk:Robert I of Scotland

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Contents 1 Schiltron 2 The Bruce? Or Bruce? 3 Bruce's Cave 4 Normandy 5 Robert born in Chelmsford? 6 King of Scots, the traditional style of the Monarch of Scotland 7 Robert, Walter and Niall Bruce 8 Background and early life 9 Wallace the Martyr.

[edit] Schiltron

When did Robert the Bruce start incorporating the schiltron, as originally devised by Wallace? He definitely used this tactic in the Battle of Bannockburn, but did he use it in ordinary guerilla warfare?

A shiltrom was not any particular shape - it might be circular, rectangular or linear depending on need. There is no reason to assume that the schiltrom was an invention of Willima Wallace - it was the manner of fighting for all spear-armed infantry units throughout the middle ages.

[edit] The Bruce? Or Bruce?

Is it Robert THE Bruce, or is it just Robert Bruce?

• Technically it's both. Robert Bruce, hence Robert of the Bruce family!
  • my understanding is that when the definite article "The" is used, you are referring to the head of the family and/or laird of the region. The MacKenzie, The Bruce, etc.

• I'm afraid that there may not be a clear answer to this question, since most contemporary records may describe him in Norman French as Robert le Brus. It would be interesting to know how Barbour describes him.

• • • The style "The MacIntosh" or "The MacArthur" or

what have you indicates that the person so designated is Chief of the indicated Name or Clan. Robert the Bruce was Chief of the Name of Bruce. The style is still used today.

In the case of Robert the Bruce, long usage has reinforced the style. Barbour refers to King Robert I in several different ways, including as "The Bruce," as well as "the lord Bruce" and as "The King."

• What is the relationship between the Bruce family and the Stewarts? I have seen on the House of Stuart page that Robert the Bruce was listed as Robert Stewart (Stuart?). Would that be the same person?

• • • The daughter of King Robert I married Walter Stuart,

and their son became Robert II, the first of the Stuart Kings of Scots. The Monarch of Scotland was always referred to as "King of Scots" rather than "King of Scotland," the idea being that the Scottish Monarch was first Chief among many Chiefs, rather than an absolute Monarch.

• We appear to be in danger of getting into a serious muddle between his mother and his daughter. I know his daughter is normally describe as Marjorie Bruce, but should we describe his mother as Marjorie or Margaret? PatGallacher 01:38, 2005 Feb 21 (UTC)

[edit] Bruce's Cave

Is it necessary to have the reference to Bruce's Cave? I'm sure there are dozens of places around Scotland and elsewhere named after him and it would seem unnecessary to pick out one fairly obscure example. Leithp 19:17, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Probably not. There's a cave on Arran that claims to be the true cave, but there may be others, too. Berek 07:57, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I took out the reference to Rathlin Island, as it's been a couple of weeks and no-one has given a reason for it to remain. Leithp 10:05, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It says in the Rathlin article that the cave was there - that's probably why they added it here. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 08:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the cave issue should be mentioned in the article. Seems like several places claim that they have the cave. I have only visited the one on Arran, the information signs there mentions it as a "legend", so we should make that clear in the article too. RipperDoc

[edit] Normandy

Could someone please amend the article with the fact that "Bruce" is a Norman family name from Robert's ancestor "Brusse" who came to the island with his cousin William the Conqueror during the Norman Invasion. Both Brusse and William were descended from (respectively) Turf-Einar and Rollo, the sons of Ragnvald Eysteinsson, the Jarl of Moer.

[edit] Robert born in Chelmsford?

The articles Chelmsford and Writtle both contain the sugestion that the latter (which is in or near the former, apparently) is considered a possible birthplace of Robert. I would have thought that the possibility of a non-Scottish birth would be worth a mention in this article, if credible enought to be mentioned in those. But I'd prefer to leave this to folks who know a lot more about the subject than I do. Sharkford July 8, 2005 17:28 (UTC)

According to one biography I have read, one medieval source does claim that he was born in Chelmsford, but this is not taken seriously by historians. The Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton explicitly claims that Scotland and England both now had kings of their own birth. Lochmaben has a claim which is possible, but it is probably Turnberry Castle in Ayrshire. PatGallacher 2005 July 8 21:32 (UTC)

Where were Robert the Bruce's parents when he was born? Adraeus July 8, 2005 22:13 (UTC)

Good question. As at that time his parents were Earl and Countess of Carrick this is the main argument for Turnberry Castle as his birthplace, as this was the seat of the Earls of Carrick. PatGallacher 2005 July 8 22:57 (UTC)

Roberts Grand Mother, Isabel swapped her part claim to the parts of Cheshire for a couple of estates in Essex, most notably the Village + Royal Hunting lodge at Writte. Quite handy if your husband's a Justice sitting in London, possibly commutable. As to Writtle's claim to Robert's Birth and place of his marriage to Elizabeth de Burgh, they seem to originate from a Richard Le Baker, in the mid 14th cent. As far as I can see they are the only near contemporary claims to an actual place of birth and marriage. Robert also appeared keen to regain Writtle, given the recorded litigation in the 1320's. Looking at the latest Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, they have Robert's father (VI) down as possibly being born in Writtle.

[edit] King of Scots, the traditional style of the Monarch of Scotland

The Monarchs of Scotland were styled as "Kings of Scots," not "Kings of Scotland." - unsigned comment by: 66.156.107.108)

Not really true. Both titles were always in use, and in fact, King of Scotland is older - i.e. ri Alban 900; rex Scotiae 1034; Basileus/Rex Scottorum, late 11th century. I don't mind King of Scots instead of King of Scotland - but "King of Scots, the traditional style of the Monarch of Scotland" is useless, cumbersome and misleading. - Calgacus 05:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Without doubt your opinion on this matter is of great importance. However, to quote the late Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk: "So the royal style was patriarchal not territorial, for it embraced Scotsmen everywhere into the national family: not 'King of Scotland' but 'King of Scots'." Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Sir Iain, Bt. "The Highland Clans." New York: Clarkson N. Potter, Inc., 1967, p. 32.

Sir Iain Moncreiffe I hope is not being literal, and if he is, he's talking nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I've heard people saying this before, but because I've actually consulted primary sources, I know it isn't true; although in the high middle ages, it was more common in Europe as a whole to call a king rex +people (e.g. rex Anglorum, rex Romanorum, etc), to imply that the Scots were unique in this or that the Scottish king confined himself to this title alone is bad history. - Calgacus 15:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Robert, Walter and Niall Bruce

Did any of these sons of Robert I have any descendants? Indeed, are there any Bruce families still living in Scotland descended in male line from the Bruce family? What about the children of his brothers, uncles, cousions? Fergananim 16:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

None of the illegitimate sons of Robert the Bruce have any living descendants, and, of course, the Crown was settled on Robert II, the first Stewart King, because David II, King Robert the Bruce's son, had no children. When it became apparent that David II would die childless, and the settlement of the Crown would go to Robert Stewart, King David chartered the Royal fortress of Clackmannan to his "blood cousin" ("consanguinious noster" in the Latin of the charter) Thomas Bruce. Today it is not known for certain exactly what the relationship of this Thomas was to the King, but it is certain that King David II and his advisors would have known who was the senior Bruce after himself. The House of Clackmannan has represented the senior line of the Family or Name of Bruce since the 14th Century, and indeed, it still does today. The representer of the Clackmannan line, and today's Chief of the Name of Bruce is Sir Andrew Bruce, The Earl of Elgin and Kincardine, Knight of the Thistle. All of the Bruce Families extant today are descended from this Clackmannan line. The many people who claim to be direct descendants of Robert the Bruce have to have Stewart connections, since the only line from him still in existance is through his daughter Marjorie.66.156.107.108

They all probably had bastards, if you accept that they were all of aristocratic status and that all had experienced sexual relations before their deaths. I don't know though if any of their bastards are known. Given the cultural background of guys like Niall, their bastards probably faded into the Gaelic society of Carrick. - Calgacus 21:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I probably should have written something to this effect: no descendants of these bastard sons of King Robert I are known today. Your statement that their possible descendants probably "faded into the Gaelic society of Carrick" is very true.66.156.107.108

Is this the Thomas Bruce who married Marjorie Charteris? What is the common historical view regarding his parentage? Is he considered an illegitimate son of Robert I? Or of another member of the family? Or even a legitimate son of one of Robert's younger siblings (and therefore junior by primogeniture to Robert II)? Michaelsanders 19:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Background and early life

"Precious little is known of his youth." Rather than make up facts for this section, would it not be better to describe in more general terms the lifestyle and learning that would be expected for someone of his stature? (I believe that is the intent of the section.) If specific information is to be asserted, reasons should be given. If we know that all of his playmates spoke French, English, and Latin, that should be mentioned. If we know that he spent time alone with a king who spoke only English, that is worth specifying. If traditional accounts can be dated to three hundred years after the fact, they may be worth repeating as long as their origin is divulged. If evidence is more tenuous than this, maybe it should be left out.--bkm pdx,or,usa

I don't think many of his "playmates" would have spoken English or Latin, certainly not if he was brought up in Carrick. It's not mentioned in the article, but Robert's first appearance in history is witnessing a charter of Alasdair MacDomhnaill, Lord of Islay, in the company of the Bishop of Argyll, the vicar of Arran, a Kintyre clerk, his father and a host of Gaelic notaries from Carrick. One historian, I think it may be Sean Duffy, suggests the idea that Robert may have been fostered in Argyll, but I don't think there is much evidence for this. The only languages we know for certain he spoke were Gaelic and French. If he did spend time at the court of the English king (i don't know what this idea is based on, since I've never encountered it in serious literature), he would have used the language the English king used, French! Regards. - Calgacus 17:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

His father was possibly born in Essex (If you believe the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography), and may have spent a couple of years on Crusade with Edward I + Edmund and his army (or his father), not to mention holding Carlisle and assorted estates in Cumberland and Essex, oh and living at least for a while, before dying in Cumberland. So the father would have needed some English, or he would have had difficulty commanding his Sergeants, Servants and Tenants. Same goes for the Grandfather who spent several years sitting as a English Sherriff and Justice. The primary language may have been Norman French but I can't see them not picking up the basics, especially if one was of them born and possibly partially raised in England.

[edit] Wallace the Martyr.

I know that myth can make a powerful contribution to history, but it is important not to lose sight of the facts, or to allow judgement to be clouded by emotion. The cult of Wallace really only dates from Blind Harry's fanciful fifteenth century epic, which reveals much more about the attitudes and politics of his own time than those of the Wars of Independence. There is no contemporary evidence that the execution of Wallace in 1305 had any immediate effect, or that, by itself, it created any lasting emnity towards Edward I.

I've made one small change to this article: to my knowledge Edward II never 'sued for peace', which would have meant abandoning his claim to Scotland. Temporary truces, of course, were a different thing.

I've now removed the 'Wallace the Martyr' section for the above reasons. My argument is set out more fully in the article on the First War of Scottish Independence. Rcpaterson 22:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)