Talk:Royal Ulster Constabulary

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An event mentioned in this article is a June 1 selected anniversary

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This article should NOT be merged with the Royal Irish Constabulary. They were TWO different forces, one a descendant of the other, but not identical. I have reseparated them. ÉÍREman 21:44 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

Other changes:

Removed the mainland => Great Britain. There is no such place as the mainland. The phrase is sometimes used clumsily to refer to the part of the United Kingdom other than the Northern Ireland. The name of the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The bit that isn't Northern Ireland is simply the island of Great Britain. It is nobody's mainland and is a term that is generally regarded as "stoopid" and wrong.

Removed Ulster. Ulster is a POV term as used by one community, as is the North of Ireland and the Six Counties. The correct title is Northern Ireland, nothing else.

Saying that inhabitants of Northern Ireland cannot use the term Ulster is also POV! One of the difficulties about writing about anything in Northern Ireland is that "neutrality" and "correctness" simply do not exist. Ulster has meant different things to different groups. It's use in practise will invariably raise hackles.

Removed Republic of Ireland and replaced it by Éire. The Republic of Ireland was created on 1st April 1949, under the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 so it did not exist under the name 'republic of Ireland' during World War II, which this article claimed. Under article 4 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (the 1937 constitution) the state formerly known as the Irish Free State was renamed Éire or in the english language, Ireland. Ireland cannot be used for two reasons; (i) it has another conflicting meaning, the 26 county state or the island of Ireland. A more specific term is needed. (ii) Bunreacht na Éireann says the Irish language takes priority over english. Hence Éire not Ireland is used on coinage and was the correct term used to use in the period from 1937 to 1949, when the description "Republic of Ireland" replaced it when referring to the 26 county state. ÉÍREman 22:59 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

Generally this issue has been discussed at talk:Éire talk:Ireland, talk:Republic of Ireland but no firm decision has been taken as to its usage. I normally refer to Ireland, but footnote it and say it was also referred to as Eire in the time period. The reason that Ireland is preferred is because Éire is considered to be a POV against the country- used in a condesending manner by British nationals. Fluffy999 21:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Eire 2 Term used regarding shooting of Victor Arbuckle 3 First killing of the "troubles"? 4 POV section in Stevens 5 Casualty stats 6 Shooting of Patrick Rooney 7 RUC EXCESSES 8 How wrong you are 9 Collusion

[edit] Eire

Eire is the Irish for Ireland, not just one part of it. To suggest that someone is leaving Ireland just because they are crossing the border is less than accurate.

Who gives a crap if Eire means Ireland, Nothern ireland is not Ireland it is Part of the UK anf thus british, NOT Irish, soil

the northern irish statlet is a part of ireland illegally occupied by a foregn powerBouse23 12:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Term used regarding shooting of Victor Arbuckle

An incorrect term was used for those responsible for the murder of the 1st RUC officer, Victor Arbuckle. I have substituted the word Unionist for loyalist. The term is often misused and misunderstood. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.7.118.121 (talk • contribs).

• Thanks for correcting that; see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lapsed Pacifist for a case being taken against the user who introduced the POV term on this article and many others. Demiurge 13:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First killing of the "troubles"?

Please correct me on this point but I believe the first killing of the "troubles" was actually Matilda Gould

The UVF carried out a petrol bomb attack on a Catholic owned bar and off-licence in Upper Charleville Street in the Shankill Road area of Belfast, 7th May 1966. The attackers missed their intended target and set fire to the home of Matilda Gould (77), a Protestant civilian, who lived next door to the public house. (Her house was painted identically to that of the bar/bookmakers) Gould was severely injured in the attack and died on 27 June 1966 as a resulted of her injuries.

If someone can support me on this I would be more than happy to edit.

Dr M

[edit] POV section in Stevens

To quote stephens 3 overview and recommendations document 17th April 2003 Page 3:

"My Enquiries have highlighted collusion, the wilful failure to keep records, the absence of accountability, the withholding of intelligence and evidence, and the extreme of agents being involved in murder. These serious acts and omissions have meant that people have been killed or seriously injured."

So im wondering where all this alleged stuff enters into Section 8 of the article. If Stevens 3 overview and recommendations document says there was, then surely its a POV to say that its an allegation ie. "assertions without proof"?

I mean its even in section 8 already, Stevens 3 document is quoted: "I conclude there was collusion in both murders and in the events surrounding them." Page 16

Neither is the definition of the term "collusion" as used by Stevens 3 given.

So it goes on with the allegations of Stevens 3 on the subject of his obstruction. Report says: "Throughout my three Enquiries I recognised that I was being obstructed. This obstruction was cultural in its nature and widespread within parts of the Army and the RUC." Page 13.

Followed up with this framing of reaction to Stevens 3:

"(It was notable, but not surprising, how in the aftermath of Stevens' report, everyone from the media to British politicians, the unionist UUP and the nationalist SLDP and Sinn Féin, all dropped the previous reference to alleged collusion and referred simply to collusion which in the aftermath of Stevens's shock report was accepted by all as a fact.)"

Surely if Stevens 3 says there was collusion and obstruction then its a POV to make out that "the media to British politicians, the unionist UUP and the nationalist SLDP and Sinn Féin" were saying anything that disagreed with Stevens 3? Is wikipedia indicating that an investigation to investigate Stevens 3 is now needed? That Stevens 3 is somehow making it all up?

Are the findings of Stevens 3 disputed by any citable source? If so, can they be cited instead of all this language which seeks to frame the statements in the Stevens document as dubious. As the article appears now it looks to have a dual personality, alternating between quoting Stevens statements declaring that collusion existed then referring to his findings as "allegations". Fluffy999 15:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned it up and quoted direct from the report, no paraphrasing. Removed POV. Asked for a cite on Durkan's remarks as I cannot find them anywhere. Made it clear that allegations exist about other cases not examined in Stevens 3, whilst Stevens 3 found evidence and proof of collusion as defined by Stevens during his inquiries. Fluffy999 21:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casualty stats

The article currently says:

Casualties:

302 officers were killed and over 9000 were injured during the Troubles (mid-1960s to late 1990s), of whom 277 were killed in attacks by the IRA.

But the Sutton database of deaths (set 1st Variable to Organisation and the 2nd to Status) says 301 officers were killed, only 271 of which were killed by the Provisional IRA (Sutton rather simplistically lists PIRA as IRA). Another two were killed by the Official IRA (listed as OIRA in Sutton) and 15 more by other Republican paramilitaries including the INLA.

The stats should explicitly state which organization, or group of organisations ("groups which call themselves the IRA"), and have an appropriate figure.

I might go ahead and use the Sutton figures if no-one objects. Is there a source for the figure of 302, and why does Sutton report 301?

Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 12:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• We use the Sutton casualty figures in other articles (e.g. Provisional IRA, Ulster Defense Association, Ulster Volunteer Force), and the unsourced casualty figures currently in the article were introduced in this edit by an IP user who supplied no edit summary, so the Sutton figures are preferable. Exact casualty figures for the Troubles are hard to agree on, because not everyone agrees when the conflict started and ended, and because of the use of cover names and disappearances. Sutton, for example, only counts deaths between 14 July 1969 and 31 December 2001, so people like Denis Donaldson or John Gregg aren't counted. Demiurge 12:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• Here's an improved link that takes you straight to the detailed stats. Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 13:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shooting of Patrick Rooney

I think Patrick Rooney was the kid who died when a Shorts armoured car fired at the Divis flats in Londonderry.

[edit] RUC EXCESSES

tim pat coogan in his book ireland in the 20th centuary states that the ruc especially in the early days were guilty of some of the most serious crimes commited by a police force anywhere in europe Bouse23 12:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How wrong you are

How wrong you are. The Garda have allowed terrorists to move freely throughout Ireland hindering an efforts of the RUC. Let’s not forget how Ireland protected both terrorist and Nazi war criminals. The RUC have been used as a punching bag for the republican parties to hide their own atrocities.New23 12:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Collusion

I'm curious as to why Weggie keeps reverting Irish Republican's addition of the following statement in the opening paragraph...

Long standing allegations of collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries have been made against the police force by nationalists and Republicans. The RUC came in for heavy criticism after Nuala O'Loan published the findings of Operation Ballast in January 2007. ^[1]

It would be helpful if Weggie would give a reason for the deletion of this section before simply reverting it again. Revert wars should be avoided. - Big Brother 1984 08:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There's a whole section on these claims later on where they are fully discussed - correctly. The addition in the Intro of these claims is unnecessary. The RUC suffered huge casulties and collusion is one small part of the story. Its POV to characterise the force in terms of collusion in the intro to a long article and gives this aspect of the force undue prominence Please review WP:NPOV if you don't understand Weggie 09:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually Weggie - allegations of collusion have been running since its creation (never mind frmo 1969 onwards). Any serious study of Irish history will show you the one sided nature of the said police force and its collusion. It's a (if not THE) major part of RUC history.Irish Republican 01:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's pertient to add that Weggie seems to be following me around wiki changing anything I add. Perhaps his problem is with myself and not the actual content.Irish Republican 01:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

If you want to add some content go for it but all you've done is to put some text in the intro which suggests the article is about collusion - its not!!. The article is about a police force. If you took more time and trouble about the material you add, instead of adding political slogans you might have more more luck with your posts Weggie 10:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

If you're seriously suggesting criticisms with regard discrimination and collusion are not worthy of mention in the opening paragraph then I reckon you're in need of a reality check. If the RUC weren't such a discredited force why the need for widespread change in the force?Irish Republican 21:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)